# 5Fa (Shortened Time Control) in 2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** Running Chess Tournaments\ **Created:** [August 9, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330 "2011-08-09T16:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Brian\_Mottershead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@Brian\_Mottershead](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Brian_Mottershead)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/21 "2011-08-10T12:58:43Z")
> [@Bob McAdams](#): > > > [@Ron Suarez](#): > > > > I understand that the House of Staunton and other chess equipment sellers do offer the old analog clocks for sale. They also offer chess sets and boards that are not legal for tournament play. > > Golly, Ron, I’m starting to wonder what planet you live on! House of Stauton? Analog clocks are being sold right now, today, by an organization called the U.S. Chess Federation (have you ever heard of them?) which clearly states that they are standard for tournament play. The USCF does not sell books or equipment of any description; it does sell its name to a company which sells books and equipment. That company happens to be House of Staunton. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/22 "2011-08-10T13:09:28Z")
> [@Bob McAdams](#): > > … If you really want to eliminate analog clocks, make these changes to the USCF website today … You have some excellent suggestions as to how the USCF Sales website should be changed. Unfortunately, these changes are outside the jurisdiction of USCF itself. USCF Sales is a separate organization, with a contract with USCF to provide book and equipment sales. I doubt whether anything in that contract allows USCF to dictate the changes you suggest. And USCF Sales could resist mightily if USCF attempted to meddle here. USCF has had trouble in the past holding onto USCF Sales vendors. The current vendor seems to be doing a really decent job overall. It could well be that, unfortunately, we need to leave well enough alone. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_McAdams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@Bob\_McAdams](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Bob_McAdams)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/23 "2011-08-10T14:00:36Z")
> [@Smythe Dakota](#): > > > [@Bob McAdams](#): > > > > … If you really want to eliminate analog clocks, make these changes to the USCF website today … > > You have some excellent suggestions as to how the USCF Sales website should be changed. Unfortunately, these changes are outside the jurisdiction of USCF itself. USCF Sales is a separate organization, with a contract with USCF to provide book and equipment sales. I doubt whether anything in that contract allows USCF to dictate the changes you suggest. And USCF Sales could resist mightily if USCF attempted to meddle here. > > USCF has had trouble in the past holding onto USCF Sales vendors. The current vendor seems to be doing a really decent job overall. It could well be that, unfortunately, we need to leave well enough alone. > > Bill Smythe Well, that’s a real problem! The trouble is that as long as the USCF is selling its name to this company, our members are likely to assume that statements in the company’s advertisements have the USCF’s approval. If we can’t change the ads, then I’d suggest that we at least change our IntroToTournaments and RunningTournaments pdfs to mention that delay/increment clocks are now considered standard for USCF tournaments. Bob ---
**Author:** ![wilecoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/2bfe46/32.png) [@wilecoyote](https://forum.uschess.org/u/wilecoyote)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/24 "2011-08-10T14:13:52Z")
> [@Bob McAdams](#): > > Well, that’s a real problem! The trouble is that as long as the USCF is selling its name to this company, our members are likely to assume that statements in the company’s advertisements have the USCF’s approval. Precisely!! > [@Bob McAdams](#): > > If we can’t change the ads, then I’d suggest that we at least change our IntroToTournaments and RunningTournaments pdfs to mention that delay/increment clocks are now considered standard for USCF tournaments. > > Bob This should be done independent of changing advertisements. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/25 "2011-08-10T15:43:25Z")
> [@Bob McAdams](#): > > If we can’t change the ads, then I’d suggest that we at least change our IntroToTournaments and RunningTournaments pdfs to mention that delay/increment clocks are now considered standard for USCF tournaments. … Delay/increment clocks are already considered standard, in the sense that any player who furnishes one has the right to use it over a clock without delay/increment. The problem is that the language isn’t entirely consistent – “preferred”, “standard”, “acceptable”, etc. I would prefer to call a clock “standard” if it can be set to the time control for the tournament, including any increment or delay. A clock that is not “standard” should be called “sub-standard”. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![Fromper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Fromper](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Fromper)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/26 "2011-08-10T19:11:49Z")
I’m really surprised by all this talk of analog clocks at scholastic events. Down here in Florida, we have a lot of old guys who prefer using the same analog clocks that they’ve had for decades, but most of the kids at adult tournaments have some sort of digital clock. I can’t vouch for what’s used at scholastics around here. ---
**Author:** ![Allen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbce88/32.png) [@Allen](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Allen)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/27 "2011-08-10T20:24:12Z")
> [@Fromper](#): > > I’m really surprised by all this talk of analog clocks at scholastic events. Down here in Florida, we have a lot of old guys who prefer using the same analog clocks that they’ve had for decades, but most of the kids at adult tournaments have some sort of digital clock. I can’t vouch for what’s used at scholastics around here. Junior players at adult tournaments are the serious ones. Many school clubs have analog clocks and that is what those beginning players use. And many beginning scholastic players use no clock at all. ---
**Author:** ![Meadmaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Meadmaker](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Meadmaker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/28 "2011-08-15T01:14:18Z")
Requiring digital clocks at all tournaments would be a significant burden on any chess organizer who supplied clocks. The tournaments I have attended where this is the case are ones held by school chess clubs that have a collection of (usually donated) cheap analog clocks. ---
**Author:** ![KyleMayhugh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KyleMayhugh](https://forum.uschess.org/u/KyleMayhugh)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/29 "2011-08-15T16:13:36Z")
Would allowing analog clocks still be an option if announced in advance? ---
**Author:** ![eastside](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/eastside/32/3726_2.png) [@eastside](https://forum.uschess.org/u/eastside)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/30 "2011-08-15T16:29:43Z")
> [@KyleMayhugh](#): > > Would allowing analog clocks still be an option if announced in advance? I’m sure that would be okay…in fact, I’m not sure you can really ban analogs, except for the instance below. Since analog clocks are still allowed in USCF rules, I imagine the only way an organizer could require the use of digital clocks (presumably, delay- or increment-capable ones) would be if the organizer could guarantee having enough clocks around to ensure every game had such a clock. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/31 "2011-08-15T20:26:10Z")
> [@Meadmaker](#): > > Requiring digital clocks at all tournaments would be a significant burden on any chess organizer who supplied clocks. … That’s why I wouldn’t want USCF itself to impose such a requirement. Let the organizer do that, if he wishes. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![tmagchesspgh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@tmagchesspgh](https://forum.uschess.org/u/tmagchesspgh)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/32 "2011-08-15T21:06:04Z")
In Canadian tournaments, the organizer almost always provides equipment for use: digital clocks which are pre-set, boards, and pieces. When I inquired why, I was told that it provided uniformity and consistency in the running of the event. Everyone plays under equal conditions. It eliminated any complaints over which clock or pieces to use. And, frankly, that is just the right way to do it, period. The idea that players might “acquire” a clock and walk away was considered bad form and unthinkable. BTW, they used the gray Saitek clocks in the tournament with Game 90, 30i as a standard time control. Games lasted around 3.5 to 4 hours. There was a projected hour off between rounds. Very civilised those Canadians. The hour grace was so that you could eat and have a beer or three. ---
**Author:** ![cysk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@cysk](https://forum.uschess.org/u/cysk)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/33 "2011-08-16T02:48:05Z")
One interesting note in scholastic tournaments using analog clocks (as a backup) - occasionally, some young kids (and some older ones) don’t know how to read an analog clock - have no clue what 6 o’clock means - they only understand a digital clock. Could make this issue moot within a generation (joking). Have to tell some of them - game ends when big hand reaches 12. ---
**Author:** ![tmagchesspgh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@tmagchesspgh](https://forum.uschess.org/u/tmagchesspgh)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/34 "2011-08-16T06:47:35Z")
A sad note: I have had to show JHS students how to read a normal clock with minute and second hands. They had never seen a wall clock and were used to reading only digital clocks. Kids born after 2000 have never known a time without the internet, HD TV, Google, DVR, or bottled water. The chess kids are truly children of Chessbase and Rybka, or lately Houdini. Even Fritz is looked on as an archaic program by the youngsters. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/35 "2011-08-16T16:00:53Z")
> [@tmagchesspgh](#): > > … I have had to show JHS students how to read a normal clock … What’s normal about an analog clock? My nephew, now 28, as a teenager couldn’t figure out how to dial a rotary phone the first time he tried it. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![Allen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbce88/32.png) [@Allen](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Allen)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/36 "2011-08-16T20:11:50Z")
> [@Smythe Dakota](#): > > > [@tmagchesspgh](#): > > > > … I have had to show JHS students how to read a normal clock … > > What’s normal about an analog clock? > > My nephew, now 28, as a teenager couldn’t figure out how to dial a rotary phone the first time he tried it. > > Bill Smythe Yep when you punch in those little hole thingies nothing happens! ---
**Author:** ![kinnerc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/d07c76/32.png) [@kinnerc](https://forum.uschess.org/u/kinnerc)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/37 "2011-08-19T19:14:12Z")
This has been fascinating, especially for someone who is just coming back into competitive chess after a 11 year hiatus. Digital clocks, when I last played, were unusual, and to use them I had to sometimes enforce my “Black gets to choose equipment” rights. I think, in my opinion, we should clarify our current, “preferred” wording of digital clocks in the rules and then let time take its course. Set digital clocks and delay times as standard, but don’t ban analog clocks. In less than 10 years, we won’t have an issue. And this can be done without slighting anyone or possibly putting a burden on our organizers. It has been, I think correctly, pointed out that the kids prefer the digital clocks more than the analogs and usually know how to use them better than the arbiters. 🙂 I can’t imagine any serious tournament player buying an analog clock nowadays. We do have a good many affiliates who do still have an inventory of analog clocks, but over the next decade these will be replaced. Time will fix this problem for us, I think. ---
**Author:** ![ESchlich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@ESchlich](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ESchlich)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/38 "2011-08-21T16:16:47Z")
When discussing the idea of standard clocks, it goes a bit farther than you may first think. It is possible that the USCF may ultimately move toward the use of increment time controls as the standard time control. I am not guessing how long or if this will occur. This affects two areas. The first is being able to actually do increment. For example, the blue Saitek does not have increment capability. The 2nd is being able to handle increment in the approved manner. This means that the clock should not continue to add the increment after a flag has fallen. (I am looking forward to the discussion about this statement too.) Regards, Ernie ---
**Author:** ![MichaelAtkins](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/michaelatkins/32/1104_2.png) [@MichaelAtkins](https://forum.uschess.org/u/MichaelAtkins)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/39 "2011-08-21T19:04:30Z")
> [@Sevan Muradian](#): > > I really just don’t know why we don’t come out and say analog clocks can no longer be used in USCF rated tournaments. Force everyone to digital that way. It’s heavy handed but sometimes you just have to forcibly drag everyone into the modern age (which began a long time ago). Better than banning digital clocks would be banning clock makers from having move counters on digital clocks, or prohibiting the use of move counters. Move counters accomplish little more than making players visually dependent on the move counter when it means nothing, only the scoresheet counts. One slight mistake, or the game starting incorrectly out of sequence causes confusion with players thinking they have made time control on move 39 and going into think mode only to lose on time. I see far too many kids using move counters and relying on them rather than their scoresheets. If I am ever asked as a TD to set a clock, I tell them the move counter is being turned off and why, no one ever seems to complain… Mike ---
**Author:** ![DENTONCHESS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DENTONCHESS](https://forum.uschess.org/u/DENTONCHESS)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330/40 "2011-08-22T09:29:51Z")
> [@Sevan Muradian](#): > > I really just don’t know why we don’t come out and say analog clocks can no longer be used in USCF rated tournaments. Force everyone to digital that way. It’s heavy handed but sometimes you just have to forcibly drag everyone into the modern age (which began a long time ago). Sevan, it just seems to me that this sort of rule would be infringement on clubs ability to organize given specific time situations. If local tournaments want to run no-delay advertised events, what purpose is served by disallowing this?? Many venues have very strict time limits on how long a tournament can last. We must remember that the strongest and most effective structure is ruled from the bottom up, not top down. [Previous page](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.uschess.org/t/5fa-shortened-time-control-in-2012/15330.md?page=3)