# Beeps and flashing lights---or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Running Chess Tournaments\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418 "2011-09-04T18:26:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ericmark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e68b1a/32.png) [@ericmark](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ericmark)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/21 "2011-09-07T03:11:32Z")
> [@Chris Lutz](#): > > > [@ericmark](#): > > > > > [@dfan](#): > > > > > > > [@Chris Lutz](#): > > > > > > > > > [@tmagchesspgh](#): > > > > > > > > > > It is up to the player to notice when the time has run out. Having a red light go on or flash is no different than having a spectator calling out, “Flag!” It is an external cue. Would you like to see a player’s friends wave their arms or cough loudly to get him to notice the clock, too? > > > > > > > > A spectator is not necessarily impartial. An arbiter or a mechanical device is. That is the difference and it is a significant one. I don’t see any reason, other than tradition, why the clock can’t indicate that someone’s flag has fallen. > > > > > > Totally agreed. I find the opposition to automatic flag-calling really weird. It’s like the way that some people like the fact that umpires and referees sometimes blow calls in sports games because it “adds a human element”. > > > > I understand the point you make, but I prefer to think that the digital clock equivalent of analog clock’s flag-fall is the reading of 0:00—accompanied in most cases by some (non-flashing) showing of bars or lines on the display. > > > > That should be enough for the opponent to notice. Flashing lights, flags, and especially beeps go one step too far, I think. > > > > A point in re a digital clock’s alleged impartiality: I suspect some evil genius could find a way to make one side of the clock beep and flash while the other does not. Similar to the clowns who used to mess with the ‘speed’ settings on the back of the old BHB analog clocks. > > > > This is one more argument in favor of 30-second increment for slow rated games—or even 10-second increment rather than 5-second delay for faster rated games. Anyone who does not notice that an opponent’s clock reads 0:00 in a game with 30-second increment deserves not to win on time. > > > > Besides, widespread usage of increment would help wean players away from analog clocks and bring us closer in line with FIDE. > > > > Careful how you word that in the newspapers. > > I can agree to not using a sound to indicate a flag fall. But, I don’t have a problem with a small flashing light like on a Chronos. The attitude of “Well, you didn’t notice and therefore either deserve a draw or a loss” is not one with which I agree. Anything that allows the player to concentrate more on the game is more my philosophy. It would be like having a football game and allowing the teams to continue playing unless one of the coaches told a referee that time was up. For the record: The Chronos does not flash at time control. You might be thinking of the Excalibur Game Time II. The Chronos stops at 0:00 for the side that flagged. It does not “run negative,” and there is no way for a player to “unflag” in an increment control. In some modes—those with more than one time control for a game—three horizontal bars are shown on the display along with 0:00. The user options are whether to set “halt at end,” “beep at end” and “beep at time control,” for modes with more than one control. The beeps are self-explanatory. Halt-at-end means that once one player flags, no time runs off his opponent’s clock. It prevents both sides from running out of time, a la the old both-flags-down draws from the early days of SD rated games played with analog clocks. Per the 5th Edition and the Rules update doc: The beep-at-end option should be enabled. Whether beep at time control should be enabled is not clear. Halt-at-end should ‘not’ be enabled in increment games. It is not clear what is preferred for non-increment games. The 4th Edition, in the infancy of delay-digital clocks—and back when USCF wanted to corner that market—stated that “flag substitutes” and halt-at-end were “both legal and highly desirable” for the reasons some have outlined here. (Mainly that a clock is objective and equal footing for both players.) And I really do ‘get’ those reasons…but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea that a digital clock is just that: a clock. It is preferred for SD games because of its delay/increment capability and perhaps its precision. The rest of it should be up to the players. ---
**Author:** ![DENTONCHESS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DENTONCHESS](https://forum.uschess.org/u/DENTONCHESS)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/22 "2011-09-08T06:38:16Z")
The way around dumb rules like those allowing beep at any time, is to in tournament advertisements state that there is no beep allowed. Rob jones ---
**Author:** ![Harold\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a8b319/32.png) [@Harold\_S](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Harold_S)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/23 "2011-09-09T01:46:26Z")
> [@](#): > > The Chronos stops at 0:00 for the side that flagged. I believe this statement is only true for the sudden death time control and that in others it adds the time allotment of the next control. Correct me if I’m wrong as I’m not a Chronos owner. ---
**Author:** ![ericmark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e68b1a/32.png) [@ericmark](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ericmark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/24 "2011-09-09T02:46:09Z")
> [@Harold S.](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The Chronos stops at 0:00 for the side that flagged. > > I believe this statement is only true for the sudden death time control and that in others it adds the time allotment of the next control. Correct me if I’m wrong as I’m not a Chronos owner. You are correct, Harold. I should have clarified that I referred to the ultimate or final time control. Just when a guy thinks he knows his chess clock cold…will play around some more tomorrow and report back if we unearth new nuggets. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/25 "2011-09-09T03:45:12Z")
It depends, also, on whether the move counter is set. If the control is 40/90, then SD/60, and the move counter is not set, then as soon as the time reaches 90 minutes, it adds 60 minutes and begins another control. Furthermore, it does this separately for each side, i.e. it adds 60 minutes to each side when that side reaches 90 minutes. If 40 moves have not been played, it is up to the opponent to call the time forfeit when the clock goes into the second control. But if the move counter is set, it adds 60 minutes when the move count reaches 40. In this case, if there is a time forfeit, the clock stops at 0:00 on the side whose time has expired, but continues running on the other side. If, however, the players play on without calling the time forfeit, then (on some models and/or in some modes, at least) when move 40 is reached, the clock on the side showing 0:00 restarts at 60 minutes. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_McAdams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@Bob\_McAdams](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Bob_McAdams)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/26 "2011-09-09T17:26:53Z")
> [@ericmark](#): > > Per the 5th Edition and the Rules update doc: > > The beep-at-end option should be enabled. Whether beep at time control should be enabled is not clear. Where is this in the rules? Bob ---
**Author:** ![ericmark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e68b1a/32.png) [@ericmark](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ericmark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/27 "2011-09-09T18:02:08Z")
> [@Bob McAdams](#): > > > [@ericmark](#): > > > > Per the 5th Edition and the Rules update doc: > > > > The beep-at-end option should be enabled. Whether beep at time control should be enabled is not clear. > > Where is this in the rules? > > Bob Rule 16Bb, page 61. It’s the old “should” language issue, open to interpretation. The language is stronger in the 4th Edition, where ‘flag substitutes’ are described as “both legal and highly desirable.” This might stem from USCF’s plan to corner the market on what was then called the Allegro clock, back in the mid-1990s. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_McAdams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@Bob\_McAdams](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Bob_McAdams)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/28 "2011-09-11T04:07:54Z")
> [@ericmark](#): > > > [@Bob McAdams](#): > > > > > [@ericmark](#): > > > > > > Per the 5th Edition and the Rules update doc: > > > > > > The beep-at-end option should be enabled. Whether beep at time control should be enabled is not clear. > > > > Where is this in the rules? > > > > Bob > > Rule 16Bb, page 61. > > It’s the old “should” language issue, open to interpretation. The language is stronger in the 4th Edition, where ‘flag substitutes’ are described as “both legal and highly desirable.” > > This might stem from USCF’s plan to corner the market on what was then called the Allegro clock, back in the mid-1990s. The actual wording of this rule is: > [@](#): > > b. Delay: Time delay clocks should be set according to the manufacturer’s directions so that the device used to indicate that a player’s time has been exhausted for all time control periods is activated. Such mechanism may include one or more of a beep, a light, a display of all zeros, or a display of a flag. Now, it is clear from this that if the only means a clock has for indicating that a player’s time has been exhausted is a beep, the beeping feature must be turned on. But I see nothing in the rule to indicate that if a clock has more than one means by which it can indicate that a player has run out of time, all such features must be turned on. Bob ---
**Author:** ![system](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/system/32/2_2.png) [@system](https://forum.uschess.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 8:40am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/beeps-and-flashing-lights-or-not/15418/29 "2024-04-22T08:40:35Z")
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