# Cheating in Ireland **URL:** \ **Category:** All Things Chess\ **Created:** [May 31, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748 "2019-05-31T15:34:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Michael\_A\_Murray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Michael\_A\_Murray](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Michael_A_Murray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/1 "2019-05-31T15:34:14Z")
From one of the blogs on [chess.com](http://chess.com): [chess.com/blog/HanSchut/iri … izing-loss](https://www.chess.com/blog/HanSchut/irish-open-a-cheater-caught-and-an-agonizing-loss) The cheating scheme seems rather low-tech and effective: couple of confederates using engines via cell phones, somehow signaling the results in person to the player. Once again, an idiotic level of impatience put the finger on the cheat – a 1500 player started 4-0 against players averaging about 2250. What amazes me is the same guy had gone 17 wins, 1 draw, no losses, in class level events this year, winning various prizes, evidently without raising suspicion. Like a broken record, I ask, “How much of this is happening where the cheaters exercise some rational level of restraint?”. ---
**Author:** ![CamasChess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/41988e/32.png) [@CamasChess](https://forum.uschess.org/u/CamasChess)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/2 "2019-05-31T19:06:29Z")
Interesting, thanks for your post and the likes. Fun to read the comments in the linked posts. ---
**Author:** ![tmagchesspgh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@tmagchesspgh](https://forum.uschess.org/u/tmagchesspgh)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/3 "2019-05-31T19:10:08Z")
Someday there may be a study of the level of patience of gamblers, cheaters, and grifters. Some gamblers are grinders who make gambling a job with all of the attendant preparation needed to work daily to make a living. They are math geeks working probabilities. Others go for a big score and want to make a big hit and go. Schemes and systems take time to set up to cheat, defraud, or steal from a mark, but are usually pretty fast in their actual operation. Chess cheaters who are working in concert do not have the time to be that patient considering the relative small amounts they are trying to squeeze out of prize funds of open tournaments. They would make more money and entail less risk by working a real job, but the mentality is that of a flash and grab robber of a convenience store. The recent incident is one more reason for honest players to think twice about attending the big money events. You can have fun at other tournaments for a lot less money. If you are playing for money, good luck. You are playing among a class of people where anything goes. Don’t cry if you think you are being cheated. You probably are but won’t see it or figure it out until it is too late. Organizers are not going to spend the money to have real security, whatever that is. Some think there was a “golden age” where all players were honest. I doubt it given how many tournaments were played at spa/casinos or grimy, smoke filled dens. Betting, gambling, drinking and drugs were part of the scene. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/4 "2019-05-31T22:02:02Z")
I’ve seen results I considered suspicious in regional tournaments with modest prize funds, notaby in the last round, though probably not involving assistance from a third party/chess engine. But SUSPECTING and PROVING are two completely separate beasts. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_A\_Murray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Michael\_A\_Murray](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Michael_A_Murray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/5 "2019-05-31T23:39:27Z")
The cheat’s first round opponent also blogged about it: [chess.com/blog/GaborHorvath … -a-cheater](https://www.chess.com/blog/GaborHorvath/my-first-otb-game-against-a-cheater) ---
**Author:** ![nocab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@nocab](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nocab)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/6 "2019-06-01T18:29:12Z")
My forum friend Thomas Magar writes: “Betting, gambling, drinking and drugs were part of the scene.” I miss those daze… “I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating.” - Sophocles [xpertchesslessons.wordpress.com … aos-chess/](https://xpertchesslessons.wordpress.com/2019/06/01/chaos-chess/) ---
**Author:** ![gwschenk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bcef8e/32.png) [@gwschenk](https://forum.uschess.org/u/gwschenk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 10:49pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/7 "2019-06-01T22:49:35Z")
> [@tmagchesspgh](#): > > The recent incident is one more reason for honest players to think twice about attending the big money events. You can have fun at other tournaments for a lot less money. That is food for thought. At a recent tournament featuring large prize money, at a nearby board, a fellow’s cell phone went off. The TD did not seem concerned. Large class prizes = large temptations? ---
**Author:** ![ChessSpawn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/chessspawn/32/259_2.png) [@ChessSpawn](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ChessSpawn)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/8 "2019-06-03T09:49:02Z")
> [@gwschenk](#): > > > [@tmagchesspgh](#): > > > > The recent incident is one more reason for honest players to think twice about attending the big money events. You can have fun at other tournaments for a lot less money. > > That is food for thought. At a recent tournament featuring large prize money, at a nearby board, a fellow’s cell phone went off. The TD did not seem concerned. > > Large class prizes = large temptations? I can understand the pressure young players may feel from aggressive parents to cheat. I followed a kid years ago to the restrooms where he was consulting his father, Monroi in hand, after almost every move in the middle game. For some the money, even in large class events, may be the issue. However, I suspect that for many the decision to cheat is motivated more by the desire to gain rating points and place in a big event than prize money. As we defendants used to say during The Troubles litigation, “Chess. It’s just a game.” Carry on… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![fpawn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/fpawn/32/215_2.png) [@fpawn](https://forum.uschess.org/u/fpawn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/9 "2019-06-04T04:44:08Z")
> [@ChessSpawn](#): > > I can understand the pressure young players may feel from aggressive parents to cheat. I followed a kid years ago to the restrooms where he was consulting his father, Monroi in hand, after almost every move in the middle game. Isn’t it against the rules to leave the board with your scoresheet, regardless whether it is paper or electronic? There’s a reason why that rule exists… Michael Aigner ---
**Author:** ![relyea](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/relyea/32/190_2.png) [@relyea](https://forum.uschess.org/u/relyea)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 5:23am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/10 "2019-06-04T05:23:55Z")
> [@fpawn](#): > > > [@ChessSpawn](#): > > > > I can understand the pressure young players may feel from aggressive parents to cheat. I followed a kid years ago to the restrooms where he was consulting his father, Monroi in hand, after almost every move in the middle game. > > Isn’t it against the rules to leave the board with your scoresheet, regardless whether it is paper or electronic? There’s a reason why that rule exists… > > Michael Aigner Mr. Lafferty did say “years ago”. Alex Relyea ---
**Author:** ![ChessSpawn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/chessspawn/32/259_2.png) [@ChessSpawn](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ChessSpawn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/11 "2019-06-04T18:12:36Z")
> [@relyea](#): > > > [@fpawn](#): > > > > > [@ChessSpawn](#): > > > > > > I can understand the pressure young players may feel from aggressive parents to cheat. I followed a kid years ago to the restrooms where he was consulting his father, Monroi in hand, after almost every move in the middle game. > > > > Isn’t it against the rules to leave the board with your scoresheet, regardless whether it is paper or electronic? There’s a reason why that rule exists… > > > > Michael Aigner > > Mr. Lafferty did say “years ago”. > > Alex Relyea Regardless of whether or not it was then illegal to leave the board with one’s Monroi (I don’t recall the state of the rules then), it was certainly improper to consult with another about the game during the game. I felt a bit sorry for the kid. He had a losing position out of the opening and was clearly under a lot of pressure from his father to win. Bill G. told him that if he wanted to go to the restrooms again during the entire tournament, he had to get a TD to take him there and back. ---
**Author:** ![wintdoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wintdoan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/wintdoan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/12 "2019-06-04T19:42:20Z")
> [@ChessSpawn](#): > > > [@relyea](#): > > > > > [@fpawn](#): > > > > > > > [@ChessSpawn](#): > > > > > > > > I can understand the pressure young players may feel from aggressive parents to cheat. I followed a kid years ago to the restrooms where he was consulting his father, Monroi in hand, after almost every move in the middle game. > > > > > > Isn’t it against the rules to leave the board with your scoresheet, regardless whether it is paper or electronic? There’s a reason why that rule exists… > > > > > > Michael Aigner > > > > Mr. Lafferty did say “years ago”. > > > > Alex Relyea > > Regardless of whether or not it was then illegal to leave the board with one’s Monroi (I don’t recall the state of the rules then), it was certainly improper to consult with another about the game during the game. I felt a bit sorry for the kid. He had a losing position out of the opening and was clearly under a lot of pressure from his father to win. Bill G. told him that if he wanted to go to the restrooms again during the entire tournament, he had to get a TD to take him there and back. That sounds like a rather mild sanction. I would think getting forfeited on the affected game and kicked out of the tournament would be more appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/13 "2019-06-05T01:07:47Z")
Maybe, but if he was losing badly anyway, might as well simply let nature take its course. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![ChessSpawn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/chessspawn/32/259_2.png) [@ChessSpawn](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ChessSpawn)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:17am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/14 "2019-06-05T11:17:16Z")
> [@wintdoan](#): > > > [@ChessSpawn](#): > > > > > [@relyea](#): > > > > > > > [@fpawn](#): > > > > > > > > > [@ChessSpawn](#): > > > > > > > > > > I can understand the pressure young players may feel from aggressive parents to cheat. I followed a kid years ago to the restrooms where he was consulting his father, Monroi in hand, after almost every move in the middle game. > > > > > > > > Isn’t it against the rules to leave the board with your scoresheet, regardless whether it is paper or electronic? There’s a reason why that rule exists… > > > > > > > > Michael Aigner > > > > > > Mr. Lafferty did say “years ago”. > > > > > > Alex Relyea > > > > Regardless of whether or not it was then illegal to leave the board with one’s Monroi (I don’t recall the state of the rules then), it was certainly improper to consult with another about the game during the game. I felt a bit sorry for the kid. He had a losing position out of the opening and was clearly under a lot of pressure from his father to win. Bill G. told him that if he wanted to go to the restrooms again during the entire tournament, he had to get a TD to take him there and back. > > That sounds like a rather mild sanction. I would think getting forfeiting on the affected game and kicked out of the tournament would be more appropriate. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![wintdoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wintdoan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/wintdoan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/15 "2019-06-05T17:31:58Z")
> [@Smythe Dakota](#): > > Maybe, but if he was losing badly anyway, might as well simply let nature take its course. > > Bill Smythe Cheating is OK as long as you’re not very good at it?? ---
**Author:** ![ChessSpawn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/chessspawn/32/259_2.png) [@ChessSpawn](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ChessSpawn)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2019, 10:56am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/16 "2019-06-07T10:56:26Z")
> [@wintdoan](#): > > > [@Smythe Dakota](#): > > > > Maybe, but if he was losing badly anyway, might as well simply let nature take its course. > > > > Bill Smythe > > Cheating is OK as long as you’re not very good at it?? From my perspective at the time, it was enough to see the kid even more upset by Bill telling him he’d need a restroom monitor for the remainder of the tournament. My non-Buddha, competitive temperament found the kid’s discomfort amusing. IIRC, he resigned five or so moves later going from bad to worse over the board. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/17 "2019-06-11T01:33:48Z")
> [@wintdoan](#): > > Cheating is OK as long as you’re not very good at it?? No, but in this case (judging from the tone of the earlier posts), it seems likely that the father, rather than the son, was the primary instigator. Care must be taken when dealing with children. The action taken seemed to impose considerable discomfort on the child, and even more on the father. And nobody ended up winning a game he didn’t deserve to win. Mission accomplished. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_A\_Murray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Michael\_A\_Murray](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Michael_A_Murray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/18 "2019-06-24T13:19:22Z")
This article on cheating in marathon running shows many parallels to cheating in chess. [latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ma … ket-newtab](https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-marathon-cheating-allegations-frank-meza-20190621-story.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab) ---
**Author:** ![ChessSpawn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/chessspawn/32/259_2.png) [@ChessSpawn](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ChessSpawn)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/19 "2019-07-04T15:15:00Z")
> [@Smythe Dakota](#): > > > [@wintdoan](#): > > > > Cheating is OK as long as you’re not very good at it?? > > No, but in this case (judging from the tone of the earlier posts), it seems likely that the father, rather than the son, was the primary instigator. Care must be taken when dealing with children. The action taken seemed to impose considerable discomfort on the child, and even more on the father. And nobody ended up winning a game he didn’t deserve to win. Mission accomplished. > > Bill Smythe That was evident in this instance. From my experience, many of the Indian kids do have pressure from parents to win, but what they feel seems less prevalent and usually not as extreme as what many kids of Chinese parents go through. I’ve seen some miserable kids at tournaments with “Tiger” moms much in evidence. There is a flip side if you’re observant. Sometimes the kid is so pressured and miserable that it’s obvious from the moment he or she sit down across from you. If so, that stress can work to your advantage in the game. ---
**Author:** ![ChessSpawn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/chessspawn/32/259_2.png) [@ChessSpawn](https://forum.uschess.org/u/ChessSpawn)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748/20 "2019-07-04T15:27:57Z")
> [@MikeMurray](#): > > This article on cheating in marathon running shows many parallels to cheating in chess. [latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ma … ket-newtab](https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-marathon-cheating-allegations-frank-meza-20190621-story.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab) Like leaving the course to go to the “bathroom”… [Next page](https://forum.uschess.org/t/cheating-in-ireland/23748.md?page=2)