# How to submit a match between chess clubs **URL:** \ **Category:** Running Chess Tournaments\ **Created:** [October 26, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452 "2013-10-26T20:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Scott\_Strattner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Scott\_Strattner](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Scott_Strattner)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/1 "2013-10-26T20:08:00Z")
Scenario: Two chess clubs (both USCF affiliates), play a rated match (for now I mean ‘match’ in the informal sense, my question is to determine whether it should be rated as such). Paired by rating - highest rated player from club A goes against highest rated player from club B, etc. Each pairing plays 2 games (one with White, one with Black). G/60 + d/5 Club A brought 10 players, club B has 11. It was decided that the bottom two from club B would face the same opponent (club A’s bottom board), and just play 1 round each. Club A has two masters, but also has some 1100 rated players. Club B has no masters, but their lowest players (who showed up for the match) are 1600. How should this be submitted? If it is listed as a ‘match’, would that entail submitting one tournament with 11 sections? What about the 400 point rating difference that is violated at the bottom board - is that a hard limitation, so that it can’t be submitted as a match? Can I submit it as a Swiss (which just very weird pairings)? I’m sure the online submission will generate a ton of warnings, but would it actually prevent it from being rated? I did search for the answer and found [this thread](http://www.uschess.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16089), but doesn’t exactly address the situation so wanted to be sure I do the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/2 "2013-10-26T22:01:40Z")
Scott, before people start jumping in with their answers, let me ask you a very important question: Why do we have match rules in the first place, ie, what goals do they serve? I think any answer which does not start with those goals and then go into how they apply in specific situations (especially ones not explicitly covered in the rules) is likely to be incomplete and seem arbitrary to some people. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Strattner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Scott\_Strattner](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Scott_Strattner)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/3 "2013-10-26T22:50:21Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > Why do we have match rules in the first place, ie, what goals do they serve? I believe match rules were put in place to make it harder for unscrupulous people to artificially raise (or, I suppose, lower) their rating. If I am reading your reply right, you seem to be implying: Although an event can look like an instance of C, it does not have to follow the rules for C so long as it wasn’t done with the intent of doing the sort of thing the rules for C were created to prevent in the first place. Ergo, I can submit it as a Swiss. Thanks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/4 "2013-10-26T23:28:35Z")
There are other, more fundamental, reasons for the match rules. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/5 "2013-10-27T05:53:01Z")
(One or more posts in this thread have been deleted, and this post has been edited to reflect those deletions.) In tournament directing, as in life, many questions do not have a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer. When that happens, relying on rote memorization may not be sufficient, and the way to reach a reasonable answer is to know how to apply the logic behind the rules to the specific situation. ---
**Author:** ![LaughingVulcan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/laughingvulcan/32/322_2.png) [@LaughingVulcan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/LaughingVulcan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 11:54am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/6 "2013-10-27T11:54:28Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > It would not surprise me if someone who doesn’t understand why I asked the question I did would fail to understand the answer I would give, either. > > In tournament directing, as in life, many questions do not have a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer. When that happens, relying on rote memorization may not be sufficient, and the way to reach a reasonable answer is to know how to apply the logic behind the rules to the specific situation. But… but… but… My whole foundation of how I play chess is based on memorizing every possible variation that could exist! My world is shattered! 😈 :mrgreen: ---
**Author:** ![DENTONCHESS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DENTONCHESS](https://forum.uschess.org/u/DENTONCHESS)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/7 "2013-10-27T12:22:07Z")
> [@LaughingVulcan](#): > > > [@nolan](#): > > > > It would not surprise me if someone who doesn’t understand why I asked the question I did would fail to understand the answer I would give, either. > > > > In tournament directing, as in life, many questions do not have a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer. When that happens, relying on rote memorization may not be sufficient, and the way to reach a reasonable answer is to know how to apply the logic behind the rules to the specific situation. > > But… but… but… My whole foundation of how I play chess is based on memorizing every possible variation that could exist! My world is shattered! > > 😈 :mrgreen: One of my very young students came home with homework from her school’s chess club coach–memorize 4 variations of the Max Lange attack, some of them 20+ moves deep. I told her and her parents to forget about it, and to concentrate on basic tactics, piece development, and playing with general priorities. it is hard to imagine that this kid would ever see a game when more than a few of these moves are actually played out, at least in their novice and intermediate period. I do commend the school coach’s efforts, however, just think the efforts are a little misplaced. Rob Jones ---
**Author:** ![relyea](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/relyea/32/190_2.png) [@relyea](https://forum.uschess.org/u/relyea)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/8 "2013-10-27T13:53:09Z")
> [@Scott Strattner](#): > > Scenario: Two chess clubs (both USCF affiliates), play a rated match (for now I mean ‘match’ in the informal sense, my question is to determine whether it should be rated as such). This is the last tournament I did that was similar in form to that. [http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?201209292282](http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?201209292282) It was New Hampshire against Maine and, due at least in part to a scheduling conflict, not very competitive. I attempted to have it rated as a swiss, but it failed validation and was required to be rated as a match. Your situation is, of course, a little different as you have two different players on board 10. Still, I would think that you could get the office to waive the 400 point rule and have it rated as a match. As I understand it, the match rules are in place to keep people from manipulating ratings and pairings. If you organize a tournament and only two people show up, or show up in a section which has happened to me, that shouldn’t count as a match because the players didn’t arrange it. Alex Relyea ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/9 "2013-10-27T14:49:21Z")
People are missing a fundamental reason for match rule limitations. (Hint, read Elo’s book.) ---
**Author:** ![relyea](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/relyea/32/190_2.png) [@relyea](https://forum.uschess.org/u/relyea)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/10 "2013-10-27T15:04:56Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > People are missing a fundamental reason for match rule limitations. (Hint, read Elo’s book.) Well, yes, the accuracy of the rating system depends a lot on the diversity of the opponent pool. A match is taking the “small pool effect” to its logical limit. Alex Relyea ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Strattner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Scott\_Strattner](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Scott_Strattner)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/11 "2013-10-27T15:08:56Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > It would not surprise me if someone who doesn’t understand why I asked the question I did would fail to understand the answer I would give, either. I happened to read the thread last night, and saw the message this is in response to, before it was deleted. It would probably be good to have some kind of indication there was a deleted post, otherwise people might think _you_ were the one being rude. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/12 "2013-10-27T16:08:40Z")
I don’t have any control over or receive notice about what posts are deleted, but I have edited my earlier post. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/13 "2013-10-27T16:16:58Z")
Note that just because the validation module (now or at some time in the past) allows an event to be rated without being coded as a match, or requires an event to be coded as a match, that doesn’t mean that the validation module is always 100% right. Programs, like written rules, can’t anticipate every possible situation, the best they can do is try to minimize the false positives and the false negatives. And the TD still remains responsible for running events that comply with USCF rules, the validation module is an aide, not the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/14 "2013-10-27T16:21:46Z")
I have had some discussions with Mark Glickman about whether we need to start looking for closed pools or players with many games against one or two opponents, but the problem, while interesting, is difficult to handle both mathematically and procedurally. ---
**Author:** ![Micah\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@Micah\_Smith](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Micah_Smith)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/15 "2013-10-27T17:05:36Z")
> [@Scott Strattner](#): > > Ergo, I can submit it as a Swiss. Thanks. 😃 > [@relyea](#): > > have it rated as a match. Scott thinks it’s a swiss and relyea thinks it’s a match. Can we get clarification as to who is correct here? > [@relyea](#): > > This is the last tournament I did that was similar in form to that. [http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?201209292282](http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?201209292282) It was New Hampshire against Maine and, due at least in part to a scheduling conflict, not very competitive. I attempted to have it rated as a swiss, but it failed validation and was required to be rated as a match. I wonder if this is one of the situations where even though the validation flagged it as a match, you could contact the office and explain why it shouldn’t be coded as a match. I have seen several instances where the validation flagged a section as a match and the TD simply allowed it to be rated as a match instead of correctly contacting the office to explain why it shouldn’t be coded as a match. > [@nolan](#): > > People are missing a fundamental reason for match rule limitations. (Hint, read Elo’s book.) Can you tell us so we can learn? Most of us don’t have Elo’s book. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/16 "2013-10-27T17:27:34Z")
The philosophy of the USCF ratings system has been discussed many times, both on the Forums and elsewhere, and it isn’t that hard to figure out even without a degree in mathematics. I think I’ll wait a while longer to see if people can work the answer out among themselves. ---
**Author:** ![relyea](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/relyea/32/190_2.png) [@relyea](https://forum.uschess.org/u/relyea)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/17 "2013-10-27T18:05:48Z")
> [@Micah Smith](#): > > > [@relyea](#): > > > > This is the last tournament I did that was similar in form to that. [http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?201209292282](http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?201209292282) It was New Hampshire against Maine and, due at least in part to a scheduling conflict, not very competitive. I attempted to have it rated as a swiss, but it failed validation and was required to be rated as a match. > > I wonder if this is one of the situations where even though the validation flagged it as a match, you could contact the office and explain why it shouldn’t be coded as a match. I have seen several instances where the validation flagged a section as a match and the TD simply allowed it to be rated as a match instead of correctly contacting the office to explain why it shouldn’t be coded as a match. Why wouldn’t it be a match? Alex Relyea ---
**Author:** ![Micah\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@Micah\_Smith](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Micah_Smith)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/18 "2013-10-27T18:14:34Z")
> [@relyea](#): > > > [@Micah Smith](#): > > > > > [@relyea](#): > > > > > > This is the last tournament I did that was similar in form to that. [http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?201209292282](http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?201209292282) It was New Hampshire against Maine and, due at least in part to a scheduling conflict, not very competitive. I attempted to have it rated as a swiss, but it failed validation and was required to be rated as a match. > > > > I wonder if this is one of the situations where even though the validation flagged it as a match, you could contact the office and explain why it shouldn’t be coded as a match. I have seen several instances where the validation flagged a section as a match and the TD simply allowed it to be rated as a match instead of correctly contacting the office to explain why it shouldn’t be coded as a match. > > Why wouldn’t it be a match? > > Alex Relyea [uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?200807264851](http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?200807264851) This event was similar (and exactly the same as Scott’s event just with few players) but was not coded as a match. ---
**Author:** ![relyea](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/relyea/32/190_2.png) [@relyea](https://forum.uschess.org/u/relyea)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/19 "2013-10-27T22:21:37Z")
> [@Micah Smith](#): > > > [@relyea](#): > > > > Why wouldn’t it be a match? > > > > Alex Relyea > > [uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?200807264851](http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain.php?200807264851) This event was similar (and exactly the same as Scott’s event just with few players) but was not coded as a match. I agree, but that doesn’t answer my question. I’ve submitted team matches like that too, that passed validation around that time, and maybe up to 2012, but that doesn’t make them not matches. Alex Relyea ---
**Author:** ![Micah\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@Micah\_Smith](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Micah_Smith)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452/20 "2013-10-28T01:43:59Z")
> [@relyea](#): > > Why wouldn’t it be a match? I don’t know. If only Mike Nolan could enlighten us! [Next page](https://forum.uschess.org/t/how-to-submit-a-match-between-chess-clubs/18452.md?page=2)