# MSA crosstable formats -- a dream thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Running Chess Tournaments\ **Created:** [September 22, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934 "2019-09-22T04:21:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mulfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Mulfish](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Mulfish)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/21 "2019-10-10T22:44:44Z")
> [@Smythe Dakota](#): > > Quiz questions regarding the above post: > > 1. Why did I lump all the colors together, e.g. wbw, instead of including each round’s color in with the result and opponent number? > > 2. Why did I use lower case wbw instead of uppercase WBW? > > 3. If the viewer chooses single-line format, but the tournament is dual-rated, where do all the ratings go? > > 4. Should columns be suppressed if they are empty? For example, if no colors are listed for any games, should the “colors” column be suppressed? > > 5. Should the viewer be allowed to suppress certain columns, even if they are not empty? Examples might include ID numbers, colors, norms, etc. > > I’m hoping for some good answers from you guys. > > Bill Smythe 1. Separating the color from the opponent makes it easier to see the color patterns and what color a player was due for. 2. I presume because you consider it more readable (I agree) and oerhaps the way you intend to display byes might be a factor too. I don’t really have an opinion on the other three questions. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/22 "2019-10-11T02:57:42Z")
> [@Mulfish](#): > > 1. Separating the color from the opponent makes it easier to see the color patterns and what color a player was due for. Precisely. Plus, it avoids confusion between W for win and W for white. > [@](#): > > 1. I presume because you consider it more readable … True, but there is another reason. It avoids confusion between W for win and W for white. I would really like the commercial programs (WinTD and SwissSys) to adopt some of these ideas, too. A single-line option for printing standings would be nice if it could show colors as well as pairings and results. And having a separate “colors” column, with entries like “wbw”, would be a nice uncluttered addition. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![wzim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@wzim](https://forum.uschess.org/u/wzim)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/23 "2019-10-17T14:24:00Z")
I would like to see the ability to click on an opponents name and see your record against that player. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/24 "2019-10-17T15:33:17Z")
You mean like this: [uschess.org/datapage/gamesta … l=12534271](http://www.uschess.org/datapage/gamestats.php?memid=11315844&ptype=O&rs=R&dkey=15768336&drill=12534271) ---
**Author:** ![wzim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@wzim](https://forum.uschess.org/u/wzim)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/25 "2019-10-17T18:01:07Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > You mean like this: > > [uschess.org/datapage/gamesta … l=12534271](http://www.uschess.org/datapage/gamestats.php?memid=11315844&ptype=O&rs=R&dkey=15768336&drill=12534271) and or like this showing total count [uschess.org/datapage/gamestats.php](http://www.uschess.org/datapage/gamestats.php) Years ago I created a page for our local club to get to this info [gpcf.net/USCFCompare.htm](http://www.gpcf.net/USCFCompare.htm) So I knew the info was available. I’m (Since we are dreaming) suggesting it as a direct option on the msa page itself. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/26 "2019-10-17T18:04:27Z")
I looked at the MSA crosstable code, there’s no logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against a specific opponent on the crosstable itself. (The opponent’s name or ID don’t even appear on the row with your results, just the pairing number.) ---
**Author:** ![wzim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@wzim](https://forum.uschess.org/u/wzim)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/27 "2019-10-17T19:39:08Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > I looked at the MSA crosstable code, there’s no logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against a specific opponent on the crosstable itself. (The opponent’s name or ID don’t even appear on the row with your results, just the pairing number.) But from the pairing number shouldn’t you be able to deduce the opponent name and id? Take the pairing number and re-scan the table data etc. Remember we are just dreaming here. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/28 "2019-10-18T14:52:01Z")
I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, I just pointed out that the only opponent information on the crosstable at the moment is the pairing number, and that doesn’t strike me as a logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against that individual, since it doesn’t give that person’s name or ID. A better possibility might be to put it in the drill down page for your games in an event. Click on your pairing number on the far left. (BTW, this drill down page doesn’t include color information, and I’m not sure where to put it, possibly in another column in between result and opponent’s total score.) Right now if you click on the opponent’s name on that drill down page, it will take you to that player’s MSA record. Clicking on your opponent’s ID could be modified to take you to a head-to-head record, though that still wouldn’t be an obvious result of that action, so adding a note at the bottom to explain what the two links do might be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![wzim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@wzim](https://forum.uschess.org/u/wzim)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/29 "2019-10-18T15:40:04Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, I just pointed out that the only opponent information on the crosstable at the moment is the pairing number, and that doesn’t strike me as a logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against that individual, since it doesn’t give that person’s name or ID. > > A better possibility might be to put it in the drill down page for your games in an event. Click on your pairing number on the far left. (BTW, this drill down page doesn’t include color information, and I’m not sure where to put it, possibly in another column in between result and opponent’s total score.) > > Right now if you click on the opponent’s name on that drill down page, it will take you to that player’s MSA record. Clicking on your opponent’s ID could be modified to take you to a head-to-head record, though that still wouldn’t be an obvious result of that action, so adding a note at the bottom to explain what the two links do might be helpful. Maybe not initially obvious, but it would be a convenient location for the user. I imagine a lot of players simply use the cross table section to view what their rating change was, a few additional clicks and information that could also be located otherwise but easily done from that location. Multiple ways of accessing and doings things isn’t necessarily wrong. (The real question is where do you draw the line? For example now give me head to head for just the last x games. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![kevin\_bachler](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/kevin_bachler/32/667_2.png) [@kevin\_bachler](https://forum.uschess.org/u/kevin_bachler)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/30 "2019-10-18T15:42:54Z")
> [@wzim](#): > > I would like to see the ability to click on an opponents name and see your record against that player. There are variants on this theme that may also make sense. Like right-clicking or hovering on the crosstable result cell, and having the name pop-up with various options, including producing a list of overall results. ---
**Author:** ![kevin\_bachler](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/kevin_bachler/32/667_2.png) [@kevin\_bachler](https://forum.uschess.org/u/kevin_bachler)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/31 "2019-10-18T15:44:49Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, I just pointed out that the only opponent information on the crosstable at the moment is the pairing number, and that doesn’t strike me as a logical place to put a link to your head-to-head record against that individual, since it doesn’t give that person’s name or ID. > > A better possibility might be to put it in the drill down page for your games in an event. Click on your pairing number on the far left. (BTW, this drill down page doesn’t include color information, and I’m not sure where to put it, possibly in another column in between result and opponent’s total score.) > > Right now if you click on the opponent’s name on that drill down page, it will take you to that player’s MSA record. Clicking on your opponent’s ID could be modified to take you to a head-to-head record, though that still wouldn’t be an obvious result of that action, so adding a note at the bottom to explain what the two links do might be helpful. Why should someone have to deduce who the opponent is? Mouse-hover over the cell, and have a box appear that shows the opponent information. In that box, offer contextual options including “Show overall head-to-head results” - probably in reverse chronological order. ---
**Author:** ![nolan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/nolan/32/174_2.png) [@nolan](https://forum.uschess.org/u/nolan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/32 "2019-10-18T16:10:34Z")
That’s a task for the upcoming complete rewrite of MSA. I’ve added color to the drill down page and a link to the head-to-head record against each opponent, that will have to do for now. ---
**Author:** ![kevin\_bachler](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/kevin_bachler/32/667_2.png) [@kevin\_bachler](https://forum.uschess.org/u/kevin_bachler)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/33 "2019-10-18T17:04:01Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > That’s a task for the upcoming complete rewrite of MSA. > > I’ve added color to the drill down page and a link to the head-to-head record against each opponent, that will have to do for now. Hey, and I think you did a great job with limited resources getting things to where they are. If inadvertently any of my comments about things we can do to continue to forge ahead sound like complaints about where we’ve been and the great work that’s been done, then I sincerely apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/34 "2019-10-19T15:06:44Z")
> [@wzim](#): > > But from the pairing number shouldn’t you be able to deduce the opponent name and id? … > [@In response](#): > > Why should someone have to deduce who the opponent is? … I suspect that wzim was suggesting that the MSA software should be able to deduce the opponent name and ID, so that the viewer wouldn’t have to. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![Smythe\_Dakota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Smythe\_Dakota](https://forum.uschess.org/u/Smythe_Dakota)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/35 "2019-10-19T15:17:50Z")
> [@nolan](#): > > That’s a task for the upcoming complete rewrite of MSA. … > [@In response](#): > > Hey, and I think you did a great job with limited resources getting things to where they are. … Amen to both of those thoughts. Nolan did a great job bringing U.S. Chess into, at least, the last 5 years of the 20th century, which was quite an accomplishment. And now, with the rewrite, all sorts of good new ideas are possible. Bill Smythe ---
**Author:** ![system](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.uschess.org/system/32/2_2.png) [@system](https://forum.uschess.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 8:41am UTC](https://forum.uschess.org/t/msa-crosstable-formats-a-dream-thread/23934/36 "2024-04-22T08:41:41Z")
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