16C2. Picking up clock. Each player is forbidden to pick up the clock.
There was a non-rated blitz game, when White made a claim for a draw. White did make the claim under the Blitz rules under rule 2. White did stop the clock on his own time with less then 1 minute on the clock. White did have a claim on rule 14I4, as it was K+R vs K+R. Black could not unite his King and Rook to force a win; Black could not force his King past the 3rd rank, if White did not want to move his Rook from that rank; the White King could not be forced into the 3rd rank by Blacks only Rook. Granted the insufficient losing chances under rule 14I4.
The clock in question, is my own clock. The Chronos II, both White and Black did use my clock during this club Blitz game. The reason I make this statement, if the ownership of the equipment is the director. Is it ethical for the director to set aside a valid draw claim (14I4), to forfeiting the player on rule 16C2? White did not make a claim under rule 16C2, the equipment (Chronos II) is the ownership of myself. Will say the picking up of the clock to show me, was in fact abuse of the equipment.
White did stop the clock, Black did pick up the clock to show me the time on the clock. Since it is a Chronos II set in the blitz mode, with picking up the clock it was reset back to its’ starting mode. When Black was pointing the clock at me, could tell the time was reset, it was ticking as the hand did press the clock. If Whites claim was not a valid claim, the game could not be restarted as the time on the clock was delated with Black picking up the clock.
True it was not a rated game, and its’ true the clock is mine used during the whole game. If the game had to be restarted, it could not as the picking up of the clock by Black reset the clock. Would have to forfeit black under 16C2.
This is my major question. Since white did make a draw claim, and the claim is a valid claim. Can the director set aside the claim for a claim by the director of rule 16C2? As the picking up of the clock did reset the clock, making any effort to restart the game moot as the time on the clock is lost. Since Black did abuse the equipment, with the abuse witness by the director on his own clock. Would it be ethical for the director to give Black a forfeit then a draw?
Apparently, when black picked up the clock, he inadvertently had his thumb on the center button, causing the clock to reset.
The intention of 16C2, I’m quite sure, is to forbid the players to pick up the clock WHILE IT IS RUNNING. There is little reason to penalize a player who picks up the clock while it is stopped for a claim.
It’s interesting that one player claimed the draw, but the other picked up the clock. Typically, I would expect the same player to have done both. As it is, if you penalize black, you are in effect saying to white, “I know you have claimed a draw, but I’ll do even better – I’ll give you the win.”
As long as you’re pretty sure white still had time on his clock, and you’re pretty sure you would have awarded the draw had the clock not been picked up or reset, why not simply award the draw? In this case the clock was picked up only after a game-ending event (a draw claim which was ultimately honored) occurred.
Two pieces of advice:
You were probably using mode CH-F1 or CH-F3 on the Chronos. Use mode CH-F2 instead. CH-F1 and CH-F3 reset the clock (after it is stopped) with a single button press. CH-F2 requires four button presses to reset. This makes an inadvertent reset less likely. CH-F2 also allows a mid-game time adjustment (such as a 2-minute penalty for an illegal move). CH-F1 and CH-F3 do not.
Yes, I know CH-F3 shows running tenths of seconds, which some players like, but I’ve always thought that was a silly feature.
You should play blitz with a 2-second delay, on demand by either player who furnishes a delay clock. Mode AN-1 or CH-A1 (CH-A2 on older models) is good for this. Subtract 1 minute from the main time in games using the delay.
With the delay, you don’t need to worry about 14H-type draw claims. Let the players prove they can stave off defeat indefinitely. 2 seconds per move should be more than adequate in the case you described. Then, when white made his claim, you could have continued the game while counting moves, and eventually invoked the 50-move rule.
Was thinking before I read your statement. Players with analog clocks, have to pick up the clock to get into the second time control. Do not use a analog that much any more, would never use an analog clock for more then one time control. Have to be thinking more of analog clocks more, as the majority of the players in my tournament use analog clocks then delay.
Nope, they used Ch-F4. Do have the mode set at AN-1 but on level 5. Most non-chronos players do not know how to get into the set modes from 5 - 8 or 9 - 12.
Bill Smythe:
White was in the right for the draw. White is our local Master, but he use the Michigan Chess Association Blitz rules then the USCF. Even if any rule was used, it was still a draw. If it was a ratable game, it would have been a huge upset. The difference between the ratings is more then 600 points. Then again its’ blitz.
It was not so much the problem of Black picking up the clock. Black likes to talk with his hands when he gets in a excited mood. So when he had my clock in his hand, he was shacking my clock like it was a rag doll. If my clock was a bottle of soda pop, its’ going to blow when you open it. If it was an analog clock, I might be calling the clock a total loss.
Doug, I see you’re as prone to post irrelevancies on threads you started as on ones from others.
This was a blitz event, who cares what clock you might use for events with secondary time controls in them? Let’s stick to one issue at a time.
As to shaking the clock (if that’s what ‘shacking’ means), I think I’d politely tell my opponent that the same rule applies as in antique shops: You break it, you bought it!
Bill Smythe did make a great point, 16C2 should only be used when the clock is running. If the player stops the clock to talk with the director. Or the players stop the clock to reset the clock for the next time control. Then rule 16C2 is not enforced.
As a TD, I don’t think we should look so deep into the rulebook that it would override commonsense. I don’t mean this in a derogatory way, I just feel we have to be fair to the players and the game. Every answer is not in the book. It is mainly a guide to keep us on track.
Its’ true White did make a draw claim, and the draw was given. It does not matter if I say its’ a draw or whatever - as it was a non-rated blitz game. My question is based on theory that can happen in any ratable game. If White stops the clock to go to the director, then Black picks up the clock, and the clock is reset (accident or malice) back into its’ starting mode. How can the director restart the game, since the time on the clock is gone?
I would be inclined to award the game to white, since black picked up the clock in violation of the rules and destroyed evidence of the true outcome of the game. How is the director to know if Black’s time hadn’t actually expired and Black pushed the red button on purpose to destroy the evidence of such?
By the way, I don’t think the rule shouldn’t apply to a stopped clock. I’ve seen people pick up a stopped clock, bang on it, shake it, whatever in order to try and get an opponents flag to fall. Clearly this behavior is what the rule was intended to stop.
The problem is this, White did stop the clock. I was out of the room when White came out to talk with me. When White and me got back in the room, Black had the clock in his hand. Black wanted to point out the clock was reset back to its standard mode. Now lets step away from this one game.
If White stops the clock to find the director, why would Black need to pick up the clock? If Black stops the clock to find the director, why would White need to pick up the clock?
Exactly, that’s why I feel the rule applies to a clock that is stopped or one that is running. That’s why I would say Black violated the rule here. White acted correctly in stopping the clock and seeking a Director. For all you knew, Black may have run out of time and reset the clock to destroy the evidence of that; so I would award the game to White (if the players couldn’t agree on the actual outcome of the game).
