An “Under XXXX” prize (or section) is open to everyone under that rating (not unrateds); a “Class X” prize/section is open only to players in Class X.
BUT if a section/tournament is open to unrated players then they should be eligable for the top prize in that section UNLESS it is described as a “CLASS X” prize or an “UNDER XXXX” prize. If it is simply described as the top prize for that section/tournament then any player allowed to play in that section should be eligable for that prize.
To put it another way: If a section/tournament is open to players outside a certain class, then the 1st place prize for that section/tournament is not a class prize. If a tournament is open to under 1600 and unrateds, then it is NOT a class C section/tournament. Its not even a class C through class E or class C through class J section/tournament. It’s open to some players outside those classes, so the 1st place prize shouldn’t be considered a class prize.
To quote the applicable rule: 33C “…If a prize is intended for a restricted group, it should be named by the class or by both ratings boundaries…”.
Otherwise a 1st place prize MUST be open to anyone allowed to compete in that event (whether section or tournament). This rule seems so clear that I don’t understand the room for disagreement. Unless the prize is described as limited to a certain group then it is open to everyone competing in the event. If a section is described as open to “under 1600 or unrated”, then a 1st place prize is for the best “under 1600 or unrated” player.
33B is headed “Place prizes and class prizes.” I don’t feel like retyping the whole thing, but it makes a pretty clear distinction between place prizes (open to all) and class prizes (two kinds, restricted by rating). Unrateds are a special case, dealt with in 28D, which seems to say that unrateds should be eligible for place prizes but not class prizes. The only real question (which I think we’ve flogged quite long enough) is whether “place prize” means the same thing in 28D as in 33B.
To address your argument on its own terms, an unrated player is neither rated in a class nor rated “under” anything. You can therefore argue that unrateds may not enter any ratings-restricted section unless there is a specific provision allowing them. Now, if an organizer specifically allows unrateds in one or more class sections, and if he does not include an unrated prize or some specific rule about unrated prize eligibility, there is a plausible argument that the organizer’s intent was to allow the unrateds to win the top prizes in that section. But is is much better technique to make this explicit, unless you really enjot disputes.
I try to forget scholastic tournaments as soon as possible, but looking at the file I’m sure I listed Chang as third because he was clear third with 3.5. I have no idea whether we gave him the 3rd-place trophy or the 1st unrated one (which was probably larger), but that doesn’t affect the final scores.
I had looked at 33B several days and was of the opinion that it mildly supported my position. I was very surprised when you claimed it agreed with you yesterday but had already packed my rulebook to take to todays’ tournament. I have had time to look at it and I still think that it mildly supports my position. You’ll have to tell us why you think it supports you.
Additionally, how “place prize” is customarily used is certainly in dispute. On this forum I haven’t seen a great deal of support for your position. In addition, the USCF even officially uses “place” in discussing class sections of tournaments. Take a look at: uschess.org/scholastic/schol … ns.php#210
where they discuss the height requirement for the first place to lowest place prizes in the non-championship sections. The class trophies are allowed to be smaller and clearly do not include the place trophies for the class sections. So its certainly seems possible to me that you have misinterpreted custom. In my experience, scholastic trophies for class sections have “1st place” engraved on the plate. It would be interesting to know if the trophies you presented to your Scholastic Reserve section read “1st Place” or “1st U1000”.
Now on to 33B. The 1st paragraph appears non-controversial. It certainly makes sense under my interpretation and would even be more useful under that interpretation since it would then also be pointing out how place and class prizes should be organized within each section. The 2nd paragraph must be what you are thinking about and I’ll give it here:
“In major tournaments the top class prizes for classes or rating-based lower sections are often higher than the lower place prizes, but most organizers consider it inappropriate for any class prize or rating-based lower section prize to be as large as the corresponding overall or top section prize.”
First of all, this sentence distinguishes between class prizes and rating-based lower section prizes by including both. If you were right then there would be no need to include both as they would be the same thing.
Secondly it provides a correspondence between the ratings-based lower section prizes and the top section prizes. So if your standard prize format is 1st-2nd-3rd-Class1-Class2, it provides a correspondence between the 1st-2nd-3rd in the class section with the 1st-2nd-3rd in the top section - which everyone agrees are called place prizes.
So 33B, distingushes between two types of prizes which you claim are the same and shows a correspondence between the top prizes in each section with the place prizes in the top section.
Also, I haven’t tried to make my interpretation mandatory, but I think that it should be the default when the organizer and td have not provided any other information on limits. It is important to have defaults as many organizers will not specify how they treat unrateds. In fact, even you failed to do so for your Scholastic Reserve section in either the tla or on your website. Maybe you posted something on-site? But if you could forget that, don’t you think many other tds will also.
But the case I mentioned had more players than trophies, so it wasn’t an issue of awarding all the trophies but of simply choosing who received them. Isn’t it important to have a default standard so that the td doesn’t get to pick who wins which trophies after he sees the results?
I’m not arguing because it is an outcome that I think is desirable. I am arguing because I think the rulebook does set the default. From my standpoint you appear to be the one arguing because you don’t want to learn that the default is not what you thought it was. Instead of attacking my motives you should be trying to reason through the discussion and not simply claiming that everything that you think is true by definition.
No they wouldn’t be “place prizes”, they would be “under prizes”. Actually most of the arguments you have made should have used the phrase “under prize” rather than “class prize” because the two concepts are not the same thing but are variations with differences. In good faith, I assumed that you meant under prizes in your discussions and did not previously bring up your loose use of terminology despite the fact that elsewhere you thought precise use of language was important.
I think you’re all missing the point by refering to 33B. 33C clearly says that if a prize is to be restricted, it should “be named by the class or by both ratings boundaries…”. Calling it 1st place for the section should mean anyone allowed in that section can win it. It’s not “named by the class” if it’s 1st place for a section that includes players not in that class.
How interesting. Your own intuition betrays you. You had claimed that the top prizes for a reserve section were really class prizes, but you naturally viewed the unrated player who was 3rd in standings as finishing in 3rd place. It seems that your attempted proof “by nature” or “by definition” may conflict with your own intuition.
I’m also surprised that you don’t know what prize you gave him. Since you didn’t include information in the tla or on the website on how unrateds were to be treated, wouldn’t you use the default - which you earlier claimed was that an unrated wouldn’t be eligible for a top prize. If you gave him the 3rd-place trophy then you would be going against what you claimed was the default. And shouldn’t the trophy read “3rd UXXXX” rather than “3rd place” since you think it is a class prize and not a place prize?
33B is headed “Class prizes and place prizes.” By using both terms terms, the writer makes it clear that they are two different things. The second paragraph begins, “In major tournaments, the top prizes for classes or ratings based lower sections (emphasis mine) are often higher than the lower place prizes (emphasis mine), but most organizers …” etc. Class prizes in an open section and top prizes in a class section are grouped together, in contrast to place prizes. Whoever drafted this section carefully avoided using the term “place prize” for “top prize in a ratings-based lower section.” If you can’t accept the plain language of the rule, there’s really no point in continuing this discussion – you’re not going to convince me, and I have no interest in convincing you.