Stop your sentence there. THAT is the rule. Bill says it all:
Smythdakota:
thanks, Bill, this is precisely my point. The game is a draw by definition and by 14D. No claim is necessary. If one of the players denies it is a draw, as in any other dispute, the director applies the rule and just rules that it is without the need to claim it.
Terry Winchester:
yes, and the insufficient material to mate (14D), ILC, and use of the delay clock replaced that statement and eliminated its need.
Sure I know it is a draw. Any adult player would know it is a draw. If both players want to play out the game, will not tell the players to stop. If both players have time on their clocks, will not tell them to stop play even if they both make over 50 moves. It is up to the players to make a claim, as the director not going to make any claims when the clocks have time. I’m not going to declare the game a draw under 14J, as both players have time on their clocks.
Bill Smythe, now if you are down to King vs King; with a time delay clock on the board. If your opponent rejected your draw offer with time on the clock. Would have to use insufficient losing chances to declare the game a draw. Would know White and Black have insufficient losing chances with King vs King. As there is a time delay clock on the board, with one player rejecting the draw claim of 14D1. Recall the TD tip on page 45 (TD Tip: Remember a 14D draw claim is first a draw offer (Rule 14, The Draw Game)).
14.2 Instead, the opponent may ask the director to rule on the claim. If the director upholds the draw claim, the game is over.
This claim would only go this way if your opponent rejected your draw claim under 14.1. Since there is a time delay clock on the board, and your opponent rejected your draw. Would have to respected your opponents right to play on. As your opponent has a time delay clock, and wants to play out the game. The reason your opponent wanted the time delay clock, as your opponent did not want some director to declare a game a draw. The spirit of the time delay clock, is to keep the director out of the loop to declare a draw.
If there is a time delay clock with King vs King, and both players are unwilling to accept a draw. Would have to rejected the draw claim, as the spirit of a time delay clock is to keep the director from declaring a draw in the first place. So Bill, if you have a time delay clock with King vs King, with your opponent unwilling to accept a draw. Would feel I should respect your opponents right of the time delay clock, not to over turn the spirit of the time delay clock. You still have the rights under 14F or 14E. If your choice is 14E, would demand you be at the board till your clock falls.
What about the rights of the other players in the tournament, who will be waiting for the next round to start? Since it is a drawn game by definition, don’t the players under 15H have the responsibility to immediately report that result? In your events, you may want to let them continue playing, but in mine, I’ll mark up the draw, pair the next round and tell them to get out the way of the next game. (And please note, that I am not declaring it a draw, but am simply recording the result on the pairing sheet.) And the players should be happy that I don’t just double forfeit them for not reporting the result in a timely manner.
At this time run G/60 events, the round times are 10am - 12:15pm - 2:45pm - 5pm. The round times are fixed, even with a time delay clocked set at G/55 (t/d 5). At G/55 (t/d 5), the game should not take more then 2 hours and 15 minutes. If you are thinking it would run into the last round, it can but my events are plus score events. When your last game is done, you win your prize or not.
Let me place this theory into the rules. Other then scholastic events, or novice adults not understanding King vs King is a dead draw. The reason for a time delay clock, is to make sure the director has no rights to declare a draw. If the player wants a time delay clock set, or wants natural time that is up to the player. Do not care if the owner of a time delay clock does not have time delay set. If the player has time delay set, will take it that the owner of the clock does not want the director to declare a draw during the game. Will also take it, the owner of the clock will or had time trouble problems in the past.
If in the case study, of King vs King with a player not willing to accept a draw. Will show how I come up with the rules, between the analog and natural time vs time delay.
Analog and natural time.
The players have King vs King. White makes a draw claim under rule 14D1. Black rejects the draw claim made by White.
White makes a draw claim to the director.
Both players have insufficient material, even if the flag falls with the position. It would not matter if Whites flag falls or Blacks flag falls, the game would be a draw under 14E1.
Since the game has a active clock, with analog or natural time. Would declare the game a draw, over turning Blacks rejection of a draw.
Time delay.
The players have King vs King. White makes a draw claim under rule 14D1. Black rejects the draw claim made by White.
White make a draw claim to the director.
Both players have insufficient material, even if the flag falls with the position. It would not matter if Whites flag falls or Blacks flag falls, the game would be a draw under 14E1.
Since the game has a active clock, with time delay. Would not declare the game a draw, would not at this time over turn Blacks rejection of a draw.
White has a choice, get the draw with a 14F or 14E claim. Only after one of the claims have been performed, then would over turn Blacks rejection of a draw.
The point of a time delay clock, is to make sure the director has no right to declare a draw. If there is a time delay clock, would not decare any draw with any position unless 14E or 14F have been acted out.
You keep missing the point. It simply is a draw by definition. It is not a matter of accepting it or having the td declare it. It simply is. And under rule 15H it is the players responsibility to report this result in a timely fashion. Not keep playing K vs K. If one of them doesn’t understand that, the td can explain the rule to him. If both don’t understand, the td can explain it to both of them. But the td doesn’t have to declare anything drawn, he simply observes a completed game.
If you place a time delay clock on the board, you do not want a 14H claim. If you want a time delay clock, you are telling me you do not want a draw declared by the director. If you do not want a draw on 14H, then I take it you do not want a declared draw for any rules with the active clock.
Why do people want a time delay clock? I take it as they do not want a draw declared by the director, they want to fight it out.
20E. Soliciting or using advice prohibited. Players are forbidden to have recourse to the advice or opinion of a third party, whether solicited or not.
If I tell the players the game is a draw, then I have given the players advice and my opinion. I do not talk with the players when they are at the board. If they want to talk to me, then I would only talk about the rules they bring up. If I tell the players the game is a draw, my opinion can end the game in a draw. The players did accept my solicited advice and opinion.
I could expell myself from the tournament, then the tournament would not have a director. If the solicited advice that ended the game in a draw, came from some other person: I could expell the person from the tournament. So I cannot expell myself but can expell anyone else. I have to make sure anything I say does not change the game.
With the claim of 15H, if the clock are still active, the game is not completed. If they stop the clock and accepted a draw, then wanted to play out the game. Then you would be right on the 15H rule. If they do not report the score, would run around and drag the information out of one of the players. If they did not report the score for 15 or 20 minutes after the end of the game. With it still being half an hour before the start of the next, Im not going to go ape.
I like to run events with 10 or 25 players. Im very sure I can watch the boards when having no more then 15 on average. Its’ a little hard for me not to see a board ending, or understand the game is over.
No need to debate declaring a draw for 14D. The rulebook is explicit about this. See 18G2: Director declares game over.
Also, I think the terminology is getting a little confused. Apart from the cases in 14J and 18G, the director has no “right to declare a draw”. A claim is made to the director, and the director goes through the procedure for resolution of the claim. 14H still has to be initiated by the player.
You still don’t understand. The game is already over. The game is a draw. It is by definition a draw. You are not giving them advice and they are not taking advice about a game currently in progress. You can’t cause the game game to end in a draw because it already has ended when it reached K vs K.
18G2. Great reference, Luis! I’ve been looking for this since the 5th came out and could not find it. It was referenced by me in a previous post regarding “ridiculous positions”.
Doug, this should ease your mind here. The TD has the express right to declare the game over in the exact cases that you cite, and in no way, would you be offerring assistance to either player.
While I admire your desire to understand the rules, as evidenced by your many inquiries, might I suggest that you take the advise of the very experienced TDs here, especially those who have written the book and those who serve on Rules Committee? You seem to want to tell those who know that they really don’t.
Once again, the purpose of the delay clock is to prevent ILC claims. It does not prevent a player from claiming a draw based on other draw rules.
BTW: it isn’t the player who decide whether or not to use a delay. It is the TD or Organizer. Players should not be allowed to pick and choose their preference.
Wrong. You could use insufficient material to continue (14D).
Wrong again. An opponent has no inherent right to play on, thus annoying the player, the TD, and everyone else in the room waiting for the next round, after the game is over.
Wrong a third time, although this time there is a grain of truth. The delay clock decreases the need for TD intervention, and increases the number of cases where the players decide the outcome. The TD still needs to intervene from time to time (especially if requested to do so by one of the players, but occasionally even if not) on grounds OTHER than 14H – for example, 14C (triple occurrence), 14F (50-move rule), or the one we’re talking about now, 14D (insufficient material to continue).
Not that way, the reason with all the posting like this. Its’ to show the good and the bad with any rule. You know what is a devils advocate?
I know what you are talking about. When it is about the rules, very conservative. If the spirit of a time delay clock is to make sure there is no draws declared by the director, then you will not get it from me. If Bill Smythe is down to King vs King, and he wants to play on he can have his fighting chess. I know I can end the game, its’ just to let someone that wants to have that fighting chess.
Sure as the organizer and director I can force someone with a time delay clock use time delay only. I just let the players decide as I do not care.
Bill you have talked how great time delay is. Have read so many of your postings how great time delay is. It look so strange that 4 days ago my posting would have supported you on this idea. I have seen the light from the Smythe School of time delay. As of only 4 days ago, if you have a time delay clock on the board would wounder how much intervention I would have. If you have a time delay clock, you will not get any intervention. Support the Smythe school of time delay or bring an analog clock!
Having time delay clocks are annoying to the player, the director and the room waiting for the next round. We do have agreement that time delay is annoying.
I suspect you are just having a good time here inventing rare and obscure circumstances. The rulebook does not cover rare and obscure circumstances. The rulebook is a guide for common sense usage.
If I am wrong and you really are worried about a K vs K endgame with a time delay clock holding up an event, then adjourn the game as a draw. Make your pairings. Get on with the event.
By the way, at the Global Chess Challange I can’t remember one game where a 14H claim was made. In fact I can’t remember the last time I actually had to rule on a 14H claim.
Smythe school of time delay 