Thanks for the clarification. I guess I was misunderstanding how this clock functions. Upon further investigation, I find that, while the clock has a move counter, it doesn’t use that move counter to determine the end of a time control. In fact, there is no way to tell it how many moves are required in a given time period – all it allows you to set is the time. So it goes to the second control, adds more time, and displays the flag symbol only when the first time has expired (like my Chronos when I set it without a move counter). Given this, the flag symbol makes more sense, but it can still be upsetting to a player who has made the required number of moves (and knows that he has) well before the time expired.
So I still think it’s a poor choice of symbol. But I like the fact that the move counter is completely independent of the boundary between time controls. This is as it should be, if the clock is going to have a move counter at all.
I don’t think that’s quite right either. I do not own a DGT NA, but I have used one many times in tournaments where the organizer furnishes clocks. I also have a copy of the DGT NA manual, downloaded from the DGT website.
According to that manual, you should use mode 16 for multiple controls with increment, or mode 23 for multiple controls with delay. You are allowed up to 4 time controls in mode 16, or up to 3 in mode 23. In either case, you are prompted for both the main time and the number of moves for each control. You are also prompted for the increment time or delay time, but that must be the same for all controls (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th).
When you are prompted for the move count for any control, you may enter either a non-zero number (like 40), or 00. If you enter a non-zero number, that number of moves triggers the next control. If you enter 00, the time expiration of one control triggers the next. So you can have it either way.
I’m not sure whether the flag behavior is the same in both of those situations. It may well be that, if the number of moves (e.g. 40) is specified, the clock will not display a flag if it thinks 40 moves have already been played. Maybe you could check that out (carefully).
Hmmm… I did play around with several of the multiple-time-control modes, and found no opportunity to set the number of moves. However, I only spent a few minutes with this, and may have missed something. Some time (not before the weekend, though), I’ll try to spend some more time with it.
Here’s what the manual says for mode 16 – increment, with up to 4 controls:
Enter main time (first h:mm, then :ss) for 1st control, left clock.
Enter main time (first h:mm, then :ss) for 1st control, right clock.
Enter increment time (applies to both players and all controls).
Enter number of moves for 1st control.
Enter main time (applies to both players), 2nd control.
Enter number of moves for 2nd control.
Enter main time (applies to both players), 3rd control.
Enter number of moves for 3rd control.
Enter main time (applies to both players), 4th control.
If you enter 00 for number of moves at step 4, 6, or 8, the clock will advance to the next control when that control runs out.
If you enter 0:00:00 for main time at step 5, 7, or 9, it will quit asking for more input and assume that the previous control was sudden death. It will always assume that the 4th control is sudden death, if it gets that far.
It works the same way for mode 23 – delay, with up to 3 controls:
Enter main time (first h:mm, then :ss) for 1st control, left clock.
Enter main time (first h:mm, then :ss) for 1st control, right clock.
Enter delay time (applies to both players and all controls).
Enter number of moves for 1st control.
Enter main time (applies to both players), 2nd control.
Enter number of moves for 2nd control.
Enter main time (applies to both players), 3rd control.
The modes I looked at were 6 and 12 (two time controls followed by sudden death). Neither of these has any provision for setting the number of moves, which I find very curious, since there’s no point in having more than one time control unless all but the last require a specific number of moves to be made. This could be just an oversight on DGT’s part, but if they had a rational reason for doing this, I’d sure like to know what it is.
ETA: Since the advent of sudden death (which pretty much did away with endlessly repeating time controls), I have never seen a tournament with more then two time controls before the sudden death TC, and even two is rare. The vast majority of events that I’ve played in or directed are either G/x, or one time control (40/120 or 30/90 or whatever) followed by SD. Hence I’ve never had the opportunity to use modes like 16 or 23. And that’s my excuse for not knowing about them.
Modes 2 through 8 don’t even have increment, nor delay. These are relics that you shouldn’t even be looking at. Nobody uses them anymore (except maybe for blitz with no increment, i.e. G/5 d/0).
Modes 10 and 12 are peculiar, in that they have increment only in the final control. For example, mode 10 might be 40/90 inc/0; SD/30 inc/30. And mode 12 might be 40/120 inc/0; 20/60 inc/0; SD/60 inc/30. Nowadays both FIDE and U.S. Chess seem to frown strongly upon the idea of having increment or delay only in the final control, although I believe there is a high-level tournament coming up soon in Finland (or maybe it just happened) where the increment doesn’t kick in until move 61.
In any case, the only DGT NA modes we USA mortals should even consider using are:
mode 14 – single control with increment
mode 16 – multiple controls with increment
mode 20 – single control with delay
mode 23 – multiple controls with delay.
All the others are just bogus.
Incidentally, what happened to all the odd-numbered modes? They don’t seem to be listed explicitly in the manual, but if you look at the bottom of the clock they each appear to be a non-adjustable version of the corresponding even-numbered adjustable mode. For example, mode 13 is G/3 inc/2, the international standard for blitz. The corresponding adjustable mode is 14, which is G/mm inc/ss.
Hmm, come to think of it, I think I played in a Wisconsin tournament about a year ago which had a G/3 inc/2 side event. Perhaps you were on the TD staff. I couldn’t help notice that mode 14, rather than 13, had been used for the blitz event, even though 13 would have been far simpler.
I have been at several tournaments (the North Central Open in various years) in Wisconsin that had blitz events like that on the side. In fact, the 2019 US Amateur North (held in conjunction with the North Central Open and blitz tournament) was the last tournament I played in. However, I have never directed a blitz event, nor do I ever intend to. I do know some of the people that were on that TD staff, though. I don’t know why they chose that mode. I do remember that they specifically told us (in the regular tournament) not to set a 30-second increment before move one. When I objected that the FIDE standard (and the default on DGT clocks) was to have the increment before move one, the response was “This is not a FIDE tournament.” At the time, it was somewhat up in the air whether or not US Chess had such a standard.
If they chose mode 14 rather than 13 for their G/3 inc/2 blitz event, they probably just didn’t know about it. In fact, mode 14 fit perfectly (G/mm inc/ss) for the control type. They only had to change the numbers. But, if they had chosen mode 13 for the blitz, then re-used those clocks for the next round of the regular tournament, all they would have had to do was switch back to mode 14, and its G/90 inc/30 (or whatever it was) would have still been intact. As it was, they had to change the numbers back.
A similar thing happened last year in a G/3 inc/2 blitz side event in Chicago. Organizer Bill Brock (who furnishes DGT NA clocks) asked me, lets see, we should use mode 14, right? I told him 13 would be a lot easier. When he switched to 13 on one of the clocks, his eyes almost popped out when G/3 inc/2 instantly appeared. Then he looked at the back of the clock. Aha!
That’s ironic, because if they were furnishing DGT NA clocks and wanted NOT to have the increment for move one, they would have had to set the clock explicitly for G/89:30 inc/30 instead of G/90 inc/30. Hmm.
One should note that the DGT NA only allows setting the number of moves in each time control period for time controls with increment. Also, setting the number of moves in increment time controls is optional.
This makes sense if the increment is only going to kick in after a certain number of moves (which is the case in some FIDE events), and maybe that’s why they do it. In that case, their philosophy is actually similar to mine – that counting moves is not a proper clock function unless the correct functioning of the clock depends on it.
On the other hand, it seems a bit weird that a clock specifically designed for the North American market (I’m pretty sure that’s what the NA means) bases its rationale on FIDE standards. Most (if not all) American tournaments apply the increment (or delay) from the start of the game.
On the DGT NA, only two modes do that – mode 10 for two time controls, and mode 12 for three.
You might be interested in the book Chess Handbook (Book for Arbiters) by IA Zoran Bojovic and IA Branislav Suhartovic. It is available from U.S. Chess Sales. The book is not an official FIDE publication, but its authors, both of whom call themselves FIDE Lecturers, make many good points on several issues.
These authors make the same point as yours (bottom of page 60 through most of page 68), and they even claim that, therefore, it is against FIDE rules for a clock to add secondary time based on the move count.
But then they go on to say that it is highly questionable for the clock to add the secondary time at all, since even then it is still providing information to the players that it should not provide. They advocate setting the clock for just the first control (e.g. G/90 instead of 40/90), and then the arbiter will add 30 minutes manually, after checking the players’ scoresheets (and other evidence) to make sure 40 moves have been played.
I don’t know about you, but I find at least this second claim to be just a little too retro for my taste. Here we have new technology that allows the clock to add 30 minutes, yet we’re not supposed to use it because of the wording of some FIDE rules written during the analog area?
So do most FIDE tournaments. Both FIDE rules and U.S. Chess rules strongly recommend having the increment turned on for the entire game.
Even in the analog era, the “information” would be provided to the player when his flag falls – which is usually set up to happen at 6:00, and then the next time control commences automatically with no need for resetting anything (provided that the secondary TC is a multiple of 60 minutes). The other thing is that this procedure requires the presence of an arbiter at each board, and that’s a luxury US tournaments (and large tournaments in general) usually don’t have.
I do like their first idea, though. “Great minds think alike.”
Maybe the best way to keep the clock from telling anybody anything would be to start it at 0:00:00 and count forward. Then, with 40/90 /SD/30, the players would have to play move 40 before 1:30:00, and finish the game before 2:00:00. The clock could just keep running at 1:30:00 and at 2:00:00. It would be up to the players to call time forfeits with no help from the clock.
The Chronos even has a mode like this. I think it’s called DL-UP or something like that. It even allows for a delay to be set, also.
Unfortunately there’s no corresponding mode for increment. If there were, it would have to count negative if the player’s increment accumulated too far.
I guess the best way to “count negative” would be to wrap around from 0:00:00 to 9:59:59. A player would know he had more time than he originally started with if the hours digit is 9.
Or, to simulate an analog clock, you could start it at 4:30:00, play your 40th move before 6:00:00, and the rest of the game before 6:30:00.
(Actually, with increment, I guess the clock should start at 3:59:30 so that it gives the increment for move 1.)
It’s interesting, but I prefer the more common method of counting down. It’s much more useful to know how much time you have left than how much time you’ve used (unless the goal is for the player not to know this sort of thing, but I see no good reason for such a goal). Also, the 4:30 - 6:00 thing was just an adaptation to the limitations of analog clocks, and is inherently artificial. I see no reason to emulate that with digital clocks. 0:00 is a more intuitive ending than 6:00.
In timed physical sports like football and basketball, the clock always counts down. Is there any such sport that uses a count-up clock (not counting races)? I can’t think of any.
I agree that a flag is a poorly chosen symbol. The manufacturer of the Tap N Set clock has told me they are going to try and get the clock FIDE certified. One thing the clock doesn’t currently do that is necessary for a clock to get FIDE certification is “5.4.3.5. In the case of a time control being passed, a sign on the display must signal clearly which player passed the time control first.” I’ve suggested one way for the clock to meet this requirement is for the display to show a symbol such as a * in front of where it displays what period the player is in for the player who runs out of time in the current time period first. For example, the display of the player who runs out of time in the current time period first would show *period: 2nd or period: 3rd while the display of the other player would not show the * in front of what period they are in. Perhaps there is a better sign than a "" but I can’t think of one off the top of my head.
Chronos just uses one or more horizontal bars in the upper left corner of the display. If there are more than two time controls, an additional bar is added as you enter each control. These bars never go away, so you always know at a glance which TC you’re in. However, when you “enter” the next time control depends on whether or not you’ve got a move counter set.
If you set it without the move counter and both players run out of time in the current time period, does it have a symbol that shows who ran out of time first? This is a requirement in order for a clock to get FIDE certification and was the point of my previous post.
No, but that wasn’t really the point of my post. I was just suggesting that the horizontal bar in the corner would be a suitable symbol, whether or not it’s used in the same way that Chronos uses it.
Soccer/world football, at least as it’s played professionally. There is no “0:00” moment—the referee handles “stoppage time” and will generally only blow the whistle for the end of the half or a game when play which might actually produce a goal in a few seconds ends.
