You weren’t the TD. And I’m not a chess lawyer; I prefer to play the game. I think it was a gray area. I’m not a TD myself so I claim no expertise.
I look at the Rulebook as providing the minimum acceptable guidelines for tournament play. As a TD, my preference is to see all the players being alert, everyone playing honorably, and behaving well with each other. If my standards appear to exceed the Rulebook, it is because I am the organizer and often the TD of the event. There are a couple of chess clubs that have posted rules of etiquette for club and tournament players. Where I can, I have adapted them to our needs.
One thing to recognize is that the organizer/TD also has to be in compliance with site rules. Our club is at a church. If we were to allow intoxicated players, for example, to be on site, it would put us in a bad light with the pastor, and rightfully so. I don’t care how quietly he is sleeping, the drunken player has to go. He is a bad example for the other players and for chess. I don’t care if there is a precedent, or anecdotes, about drunken GMs not being awakened. They have to be roused and sent home. If we were at a municipal building, I am pretty sure the officials and police would be interested in why we were allowing such goings on. Every site has its own particulars that the organizer is obliged to follow.
In the case of the potentially ill, or even the just snoozing player, because it is my event I am going to check on him to see to it he is awake. If I don’t, there is the possibility I have not fulfilled a legal duty to act with reasonable care toward an ill player. I would not like to have to deal with a deposition in a civil suit that asks why I did not check on him. Some conditions lead to individuals taking “naps” that are actually indicators of an underlying serious condition that might require immediate attention. Explaining that the Rulebook says I don’t have to may not cut it for a jury.
Here’s a different scenario but still involves the TD potentially interjecting himself into the game.
A young player’s parent approaches you and says they think their child needs to go to the bathroom. You observe the child and see they are doing the little dance that all parent’s recognize. The parent wants you to ask the child if he needs to go to the restroom. They tell you the child has had an accident before when caught up in a game. They are playing in the U1800 section of an open tournament. Do you try to prevent a bigger distraction later or not intervene?
Sigh. Happens all of the time. I certainly don’t want to have to clean up after the kid. I would advise him of his right to go the bathroom; sometimes they don’t know they can leave the board.
If there are site rules that you must comply with, like not tolerating any intoxicated players, or personal rules you wish to enforce, like waking up any sleeping player as soon as you are aware that he/she is sleeping, that should not be a problem. Neither of these is such that it would reasonably be expected to deter someone from entering, so you’re not going to run afoul of rule 26B if you don’t advertise them in advance. I would state them at the beginning of the tournament along with your other announcements. Having done so, there should be no problem with enforcing them.
Ah yes, I can see it now, “Alright folks we are running on time. Remember the skittles room is out this door and to the left. Please go there after your round to discuss the game or anything else. And by the way, don’t worry. If anyone falls asleep, I’ll wake them up as soon as I find out…”
Sorry Dave, I did not mean to disparage your credentials. It is only in the last post that you identified yourself as an NTD and a member of the rules committee. That certainly qualifies you as “… one of his ilk” as I asked for in my last post!! That being said, I was assuming my ruling was correct; my question was really about if there should be a penalty for someone who wakes him up and what that penalty should be if it is another player, a spectator, or a parent.
Walter High
On the principle that persons not playing the game have absolutely no business whatsoever interfering in the game for any reason, there absolutely should be penalties of some sort. I usually give the person interfering a serious dressing down (leaving no doubt whatsoever that I am not pleased) and then ban that person from the playing area, at least for the duration of the round. Parents have no special privileges and are just another spectator.
Walter
I did not take offense. I was being a smart alec. I assumed you didn’t know I was an NTD since I had not stated it and we have never met.
I told myself I was done with this string, but your comment invites one (hopefully) last post from me.
I will summarize and rehash to some extent. There seems to be universal agreement that a spectator should not interfere. Both NTDs have recommended a warning. I would not object to a time penalty if it was another player who interfered. Again, if it is an interested party, totally different scenario and penalties increase.
It appears both NTDs also agree that absent disturbances or medical distress the TD has no right to intervene. Others suggested a TD should intervene, but those posts were not based on rules of chess but were instead based on issues of responsibility to venue sportsmanship, and a duty to aid a player. I do not direct at those venues and am not a doctor or a lawyer. My analysis is based only on the rules of chess (which do allow common sense and judgment).
Since I have not stated my position yet 32 times
I will summarize my position, though some of this is new.
I have been directing tournaments for 35 years. I have had medical emergencies (heart attack, seizures, unconsciousness) and even many more minor emergencies occur in event I direct. I have never been called to defend in a court of law my duty to aid a player. I am not a lawyer and do not know what a lawyer would say. Though anybody can sue anybody at any time, I am fairly cofident that a “reasonable person” standard exists and I have nothing to fear. I have also dealt with intoxicated players many times (including GMs and IMs). As Ken Ballou noted not everything is covered in the rulebook. There is no rule on intoxicated players or medical disctress. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I’ve always managed to figure it out and get by. As a passerby, I would not wake a sleeping person in a public place, but I would stop and rende aid if the person was obviously in distress. I apply the same principle at a chess tournament (though as a TD I would keep an eye on such a player - I certainly have that duty), Many years ago (now almost 30 years ago) I was a police officer. From my (albeit VERY dated) experience, being intoxicated is not a crime. Being intoxicated AND disorderly or being intoxicated AND unable to care for oneself is an offense. Similarly, that is where I draw the line to intervene.
I say all of the above as a way of defending why I believe the two cases on intoxicated individuals that I mentioned were handled correctly in accordance with the rules of chess and the venue in which they were held. Neither venue was a church.
Other venues may have a different standard. There may also be codes of conduct at various clubs. I respect that and have no issue with that. I am merely stating what the rules of chess and normal standards in a public place (i.e. hotel) called for in handling these cases.
By the way, I think your case is even clearer than my examples. In your case, I think anybody except the opponent who intervenes (even the TD) would be wrong to do so. I think if a TD intervened and was appealed to USCF, the finding would be that the TD erred. Now if only I had confined myself to your original question and kept my mouth shut on my TD war stories! ![]()
Now I think I am done!
Dave
Ron, many years ago now, playing in my college cc championship tournament, in the first round I fell asleep against one of the weakest players in the club. When I was awake, for the most part, I played rather horribly, but still woke up in time to win easily. After the game
my opponent was quite put out by to him what was the obvious amount of disrespect I showed him. While none such was intended, as I
was simply worn out from exams that week, I could see how it could bother someone.
Rob Jones
Recently I was playing in a tournament and fell asleep during a game. A long week of work, a missed nap, and being 61 are excuses for the ten minute snooze I took. I awakened from the sound of a snort, to discover that it was my own snoring. Everyone around me was smiling. My opponent was happy about the ten minute time advantage he got. Unfortunately for him, while I was getting a bit of REM sleep, I was dreaming about the position on the board. Refreshed and ready to play I proceeded to play what I dreamed and ran him over with a combination that I had fantasized in the dream. Here is a conundrum for the opponent. Should he have awakened me early and left me in a tired state unlikely to find anything or allowed me to take the nap that I needed hoping I would run out of time?
I wouldn’t want to win a game because my opponent was sleeping. I would wake the opponent myself some where in the 5 to 10 minute range (assuming a long time control.)