There are a number of organizers/directors having the rounds right after the official expired time of the analog clock. Like a G/60 event with the round times of 10 - 12 - 2 ect. The round times have publicity in whatever media the organizer/director find as there local source of information to the public. There are still a number of directors/organizers that plan for the round times on the analog clock then the delay clock. Myself plan round times on the delay clock not the analog clock.
If the director/organizer plan the round times on the analog clock without rest. Then the delay clock can run into the next round, as the delay clock can take as much as 10 or 15 minutes with the extra time. This can cause a emergency, as the next round can be 15 minutes late. As it has been proven with the best minds of this forum, the director has the right for adjudication. The director can have adjudication, and give a win lose or a draw under rule 18G.
This is my question:
18G. Adjudications. Only under emergency circumstances may a director permanently adjudicate a game; that is, declare a result based upon best play by both sides. When used in other than emergency situations, this fact must be clearly specified in all tournament publicity and posted and announced at the site.
Since the rounds are based on the time given on the analog clock without rest. If the players with the delay clock run into the next round, how many minutes should the director give the players before having adjudication? If the players make 360 moves with a 5 second delay clock, that would make the start of the next round 1 hour late. If the players make 60 moves with a 5 second delay clock, that would make the start of the next round 10 minutes late. What should be the norm before the director can step in for adjudication?
Anyone who considers a round starting 10 minutes late an emergency needs some serious attitude adjustments.
What’s an emergency? Something that CANNOT be anticipated and seriously impacts the event. Tornados and power failures come to mind (I’ve had both happen at events I ran.)
I always assume that a round could run 10-15% over the bugeted time, if only because I’ve never seen an analog clock that runs fast but I’ve seen lots of them that run slow.
18G1 gives an example of an “emergency” – a player abandoning the game without resigning, but remaining in the playing area. I have some reservations about this, since a player doing this really ought to be forfeited regardless of the position. To be honest, I can’t conceive of a situation in which I would adjudicate a game. There was that time during the Northridge earthquake where the tournament hotel more or less sank into the ground before round three, but even if this had happened during the round, it would have been a bit impractical to adjudicate all the games.
It is interesting to note that 18G2 states, “18G does not prevent a director from declaring the result of a game that has ended without the players noticing this. For example, if the game has been decided by checkmate (!3A), late arrival for game (13D), late arrival for adjournment resumption (13E), stalemate (14A), or insufficient material to continue (14D) the director may declare the game over.” This should dispose of an earlier (and fairly pointless) thread concerning players continuing the game with no mating material.
In theory someone could play a drawish game going into 200 plus moves. There is always the chance, the players could be manipulating the results with a drawish game going into moves of more then 100. The players can play a drawish game, just to play a drawish game. With time delay, the game can go into hours if its’ just a dead boring draw.
In theory the K + P(a2) vs K, is a drawish game. The pawn would move all the way to a7 before the black King moves to a8. Moving a3, a4, a5, a6, with the 50 move rule can make this drawish game last for 200 moves, before it would need to move to a7. Sure you want them to play on with the time delay clock? Wake me when the next round starts.
If that happened, and if both players used the full five seconds each move (which would not really be the case, since the defender would be moving instantly), it would take an extra 16 minutes. Any organizer who schedules his rounds with less than that for leeway is (in my opinion) either foolishly optimistic or incompetent.
I remembered the only situation in which I’ve ever seen a TD adjudicate adult games. The playing site janitor told the TD (not me, thankfully) at 8:30 that the building had to be vacated by 9:00. That’s everybody out and all the gear packed up. The TD (a 2000 player) told the players he would adjudicate any unfinished games at 8:45. I think he had to do it for one game, which was a more or less textbook draw, so it wasn’t a tough call.
Think you were looking at the time with one player. Since both white and black have 5 seconds, that would be 10 seconds per move. Every 6 moves (6 moves X 10 seconds = 1 minute) would add 1 minute to the game. That would be 33 1/3 minutes not 16 minutes. If you then add in the moves before they got down to K + P vs K, what organizer/director would give a leeway of a hour? If I have my rounds to give leeway of one hour, my rounds for my G/60 would be 10am - 1pm - 4 pm - 10pm. Like to be nice to the people with time delay, but games going on and on only makes the organizer/director look incompetent with the other players.
Would somebody shoot this horse? This current thread and its ideas… ive seen in other threads. Seriously, this horse is dead….
Here is my honest opinion.
YES, it is possible for players to continue to play a drawn position with a delay clock for long periods of time.
Should they do this? NO. If a position is clearly drawn, just offer the draw and accept it.
Those who do insist on continuing to play, and I’ll use the example in this post… 200 extra moves in a drawn game… Sure I’ll let them play… Then I’ll put a move timer on them. And if they still want to play… I’ll probably adjourn them for being idiots.
But I probably won’t ever let them play in one of my tournaments again. In fact I would ban them. And I would definitely give them a scolding for being incompetent.
This situation is SOOOOOO extreme. The only way I see this “occurrence” ever taking place, is if the players are doing it on purpose.
200 moves?? That’s ludicrous. The players (or the player that wont accept a draw) involved in the game would probably be lynched by every single other player in the tournament for holding the entire tournament up.
One requisite for this post is that I am referring to mostly experienced chess players. Even though at K-3 this could occur… I don’t think any kid would want to continue to play 200+ moves in a drawn game… The odds of this ever occurring (without specific intent) is so low as to make this discussion worthless.
I do have one trivial point to raise. I HAVE seen K-3 players be perfectly willing to play for 200+ moves, but the only times I’ve seen it is in the K+Q vs. K ending were the queen gave continual checks and the movement rate was at roughly 50 checks per minute. Thus, even in the only examples I’ve seen of a 200+ move game they still had the last 100 moves take a total of roughly two minutes.
In over 200,000 tournament games at tournaments I’ve directed I’ve never seen anything to justify that concern.
This is utter nonsense. I suspect I’ve been playing in (and directing) tournaments a lot longer than you have, and nothing close to this has ever happened. If it did, the TD could solve it in any number of ways, including starting the next round and letting the two imbeciles play it out in a corner (and start their next game instantly when they finish). Doug, if you continue wasting space with pointless discussions like this one, readers will simply ignore every post with your name on it. I’m very close to that point now.
John, there is a very good rational reason to play out a draw position. If there is a chance to win any position with time delay, even when its’ a clear and pointless draw – play it out. Bill Smythe likes fighting chess, I like fighting draws with time delay. If we were paired up and now in a drawish game, with over 120 moves would like the idea you made – the director starts the next round when we keep on and on with a pointless draw.
If you have a time delay clock, going to play on with a drawish game so you get upset. When you get upset you blunder, or get so tired of the game you just resign. Since directors do not want adjudications, with the time delay clock just play for a draw, hope for a long and boring endgame. With the time delay clock, you cannot force your opponent into a 14H draw game. With a time delay clock, play out a 14H draw game.
When players get upset at the board, they take a lot longer then 5 seconds to make a move. If it is a draw under 14H, play the draw game out. So time trouble can take 20 or 30 minutes with 200 or 400 moves. I do not need to keep score, as we are in time trouble in a boring draw game that could be a 14H claim. I’m looking for my opponent to get so upset, my opponent blunders or takes longer to move being upset. Since I am not upset, would not make as many blunders or take longer to move.
People that want time delay say they want to play out the game. If you are down to G/2 (t/d 5), if it is a drawish game under 14H. play it out for 300 or 1,000 moves. Your opponent will get upset to play a boring draw, just play it out as your oppent will get upset in time and lose on time after all. Can anyone make a 1,000 moves with only G/2 (t/d 5) on the clock? Thats how you win with a time delay clock, if it is a 14H draw just play it out.
If you have a time delay clock and you know it is a draw, do not accept a draw as you can win it. With a time delay clock you can play out 500 moves in time trouble. Fighting out a draw in time trouble can become a win.
Once again I urge you to post at your events some variation of the now defunct 175 move rule from the 4th edition of the rulebook. That way you can deal at your events with the kind of possible, yet improbable, delay clock situations you keep posting over and over again on these forums.