Last night there was a game in which a player using Monroi wanted to claim a draw by the fifty move rule. The last pawn was captured by White at move 49, and Black wanted to claim a draw before making move 98. I wasn’t sure how to rule, since he obviously hadn’t made the move on his Monroi. Finally I told him that he needed to make one more move, at which point White agreed to a draw. I don’t think I handled it very well, but what should I have done?
Alex Relyea
The first thing I would have done was tell white that black is making a draw offer. Don’t even bring up the Monroi issue. If white refuses, then go to the notation and handle it the way you did.
I’d have simply told him that he can call your attention to his claim when he is about to make the 50th move. I’m not sure whether or not you should have told him how many moves he had left to get to 50 though.
Does this question have anything to do with Monroi? I don’t see that it does.
What does a director normally do when someone claims the 50 move rule on only the 49th move?
I don’t know the answer to that, though.
The reason this has to do with the Monroi is that the proper way to claim the draw is to write the move on the scoresheet but not play it on the board. This causes problems (or perhaps is illegal) on the Monroi.
Alex Relyea
For 50-move claims I’ve always played the move and then made the claim on my move PRIOR to hitting the clock. That can be done without having to write it on the scoresheet, thus negating Monroi-like scorekeeping rules from being involved.
14C (triple occurrence) discusses the position that is about to occur (particularly in 14C2) while 14F (50 moves) discusses the moves that have already occurred.
This thread might need to be redirected towards 14C with a Monroi. In that case, 14C4 is an option that may need to be mandated for Monroi users (move and then claim PRIOR to hitting the clock).
As an aside, in the initial paragraph, if the pawn was captured by white on move 49 then, after black’s 98th move was determined, black would have made 50 non-capturing/non-pawn moves, but white would have only made 49. Thus a claim by black on move 98 would be incorrect and 14F2 would award two minutes to white.
My understanding was that the proper way to make a draw offer was to play the move on the board, but not hit the clock, and then make the offer. Can someone clarify this? Is this in the rules, or is it just by convention?
Jim
The way I know to do it is to move, then offer, then punch clock. That was my mindset when I asked my question.
I didn’t know about the method Alex described, but maybe it’s OK too.
The rules that probably apply:
The Drawn Game
All draw claims are also draw offers (14B). The player by making any draw claim (for example: triple occurrence of position (14C), insufficient material to continue (14D), insufficient material to win on time (14E), the 50-move rule (14F), both flags down in sudden death (14G), insufficient losing chances (14H), …) is also making an implied offer of a draw to the opponent. If the opponent accepts the implied draw offer, the game is over.
The opponent may immediately accept the draw offer and end the game (14B), or instead
The opponent may ask the director to rule on the claim. If the director upholds the draw claim, the game is over.
If the director does not uphold the claim (does not declare the game a draw), the game continues. The implied draw offer is still in effect, and the opponent may accept it or reject it (14B).
TD TIP: When a draw claim is made, the director should inform the opponent of the draw offer. The opponent need not immediately accept the draw offer. Instead, the opponent may first wait and see what the director rules. The director’s ruling might or might not end the game in a draw. If the claim is denied, then the director restarts the game. In restarting the game, the director assesses penalties, if appropriate according to the rules, and starts the clock. The draw claim becomes a 14B draw offer. The director should remind both players of this draw offer when starting the clock.
AND
14F. The 50-move rule.
TD TIP: Remember a 14F draw claim is first a draw offer (Rule 14, The Drawn Game).
14F1. Explanation.
The game is drawn when the player on move claims a draw and demonstrates that the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each side without any capture or pawn move. If the director wishes to allow more than 50 moves for certain positions, details must be posted at the tournament before the first round. See also 15H, Reporting of results.
14F2. Resolution.
If the claim is found to be correct, the game is drawn. If it is found to be incorrect, two minutes shall be added to the opponent’s remaining unused time.
AND
14F4. Director may count moves in sudden death.
In sudden death, a player with less than five minutes remaining and a simplified position in which no pawn moves or captures seem likely may stop both clocks, declare to a director an intention to invoke the 50-move rule when possible, and ask for assistance in counting moves. A director who agrees this is appropriate may count moves or use a deputy or a clock with a move counter to do so.
a. If the director or the deputy will count moves, the count should begin by crediting moves already made and listed on the scoresheet of the player intending to claim. An opponent who believes a different number of moves have been made should present this case if and when the count reaches 50.
b. The director or deputy may either keep score, make check marks, or combine the two.
c. After the count by the director or deputy begins, neither player has a right to know the count until 50 moves are reached. At that point the game is declared drawn unless the opponent successfully challenges the move count.
d. The opponent may challenge either the moves on the claimant’s scoresheet before the director/deputy count, the count itself, or both, but must have a scoresheet adequate (13C7) to support the challenge.
e. If the challenge is upheld, the game shall continue with the director or deputy resuming from the corrected count. If the claimant’s scoresheet is responsible for the wrong count, two minutes shall be added to the remaining unused time of the claimant’s opponent. If the director/deputy count was wrong, there shall be no time adjustment.
f. The director may insert a clock with a move counter that shows the remaining time of both players, set the move counter to zero, and order play to resume. When the clock indicates that both sides have completed 50 further moves, either player may claim a draw. If this method is used, the director should inform the players that if a move is erroneously not counted or double counted, the players should stop the clock and notify the director.
Tim
I suggest people read Rule 5I and how it applies to Rule 14 in general and Rule 14F (50 move rule) in particular.
Stopping the clock prior to summoning the TD to make a draw claim is preferred.
Once the clock is punched, it is the other player’s turn.
Of course, all of this is compounded by FIDE’s rules that don’t allow for the USCF variation of making your move and stopping the clock or making the claim before hitting the clock. Once you make the move on the board in FIDE rules, you can no longer claim a draw, until the next chance.
Do we know if they are using FIDE rules in this Championship as I believe this exact problem occurred in one of Nakamura’s games last year.
Chris Bird
Let’s see. First, I ruled that there had only been 49 moves. As it was very easy to find a move that wouldn’t allow White to mate, I didn’t see a reason to add the two minutes (the players each had over 20 with 30 second increment). You’re right that I should have told White that Black was offering a draw, but Black made the claim to another director first, and he didn’t know what to do with the Monroi. I just didn’t think of it when I intervened.
We are following USCF rules. Did I miss anything else?
Alex Relyea
In a FIDE event, there should be an arbiter nearby at all times, so stopping a clock to verify a claim is left to the arbiter. (That’s the ideal at least.)
I don’t have a rulebook handy, but I thought there was a caution with regard to stopping the clock after the move was made. If a player after making the move accidentially starts his opponent’s clock when attempting to stop his then the draw claim is invalid. Therefore, either stopping the clock prior to the move or making the move and letting the clock run are safer than moving and stopping the clock.
I believe physically stopping the clock as opposed to starting your opponent’s clock is a non-issue with digital clocks as most models use different buttons to press the clock and stop it. For mechanical clocks however it is another matter and some precision might be required if that method is pursued.
I think you’re putting more weight on the FIDE rule than it can carry. The USCF rule says that a player on the move may make a claim. The FIDE rule says that a player who makes a move loses the right to claim. If this ever came up, I would rule that the player is still “on the move” until he starts his opponent’s clock, which means that the USCF and FIDE rules say the same thing.
If your quotes are accurate, those two statements sound identical.
A player is on move until he makes a move. At that moment he is no longer on move.
Now as to when a player is considered to make the move, that’s another matter. John thinks that happens when the clock is punched.
That’s putting it a little more strongly than I would. In this specific context I would rule that way, since I think that’s the intent of the rule, and any other reading would be a pointless legalism. Another way to put is this: At precisely what point does “the player” (who may make a claim) become “the opponent” (who may not)?
The Mon-Roi does not allow you to input a move on the scoresheet until after it is made on the board, when it is hooked up to the central hub?!
No, there’s just been a lot of discussion about how you’re not supposed to record the move (on the MonRoi) until after you’ve made it on the board because that would let you see the position 1 ply deeper. Since the FIDE rules require “move first then record” rule 9.3 is obviously intended to be an exception. I see no reason a person couldn’t follow the FIDE rule – after all, the stated PURPOSE of our new “move first then record” rule was to match the FIDE rule.