MonRoi use in tourney with supplied scoresheet

[LaughingVulcan]

This will hopefully be a quick question, inspired by two separate recent threads…

Rule 15A states that a scoresheet can be prescribed for a tournament. Would this give an organizer the right to insist upon a prescribed and provided paper scoresheet to be used, to the exclusion of USCF-approved scorekeeping devices? Does a player have any right to insist upon the use of the MonRoi/eNotate/future devices?

(And yes, I realize that many might consider that technophobic… And I’m not a technophobe; I’d happily get a MonRoi if I could afford it and found it affordable / wish someone would come up with eNotate for Palm 5 devices. I’m not trying to ask for people’s opinions on electronic devices, love or hate. Just what an organizer’s options are.)

Come to that, could an organizer insist upon using an approved electronic device if one is provided?

Thanks for considering.

[Terry_Winchester]

@http://www.uschess.org/docs/gov/reports/RulebookChanges.pdf

43: Scoresheets: A scoresheet is any piece of paper, electronic, or mechanical recording device that allows a player to comply with rule 15A.

Electronic scoresheets are subject to certification guidelines as published by the USCF. An electronic scoresheet not so certified is not considered standard and may only be used at the discretion of the tournament director.

Often a pre-printed scoresheet has spaces indication players names, event, other game related information, spaces for the recording of the moves, result and the signatures of the players.

If a scoresheet is provided by the event, then that scoresheet is the standard used for that event.

If a scoresheet is not provided by the event, then any method of keeping score is allowed provided it meets the rules established in 15A.

If an event, even when it provides scoresheets, does not require that a copy of the score be submitted, then the TD may allow the use of any method of keeping score.

If an event requires that a copy of the score to be submitted, the TD may require the use of the scoresheet provided, or alternately may accept any method of providing that score.

A TD may require the use of the provided scoresheet, or may allow non-standard scoresheets to be used even if one is provided.

TD TIP: Tournament directors are advised to be flexible on the above. Many players have their own scoresheet in the form of notebooks or recording devices, and prefer to keep their games in an orderly fashion within that book. If a player can provide a copy of the score from their notebook, or a printout or downloaded from the electronic scoresheet, this is acceptable. You have the score and the result of the game.

Contact the USCF office regarding the policies and guidelines for electronic scorekeeping devices.

[LaughingVulcan]

Gah! I had read that before… I guess that’s why it was familiar. (Plus a couple of posts from the other MonRoi thread.) Must have been a brain cramp. Thanks, Terry!

I guess that also means that an organizer could theoretically require electronic usage. (Though I doubt that would ever happen.)

Thanks again!

(ETA… I should have also looked at the tabs I made for my rulebook, where below “REC. GAMES” I also very clearly wrote “REVISED”. )

[ppwchess]

@LaughingVulcan

I guess that also means that an organizer could theoretically require electronic usage. (Though I doubt that would ever happen.)

At tournaments like the US Open they offer Mon Rois to the top board so that they have games to broadcast. I’m not sure they’ve ever compelled somebody to use it against their will. As long as one player on each of the top boards is using it then they have their games for broadcast. I’ve seen some players use the supplied Mon Roi, and also keep score on a regular notation sheet. To me that’s too much like work.

[fantasychess]

@LaughingVulcan

I guess that also means that an organizer could theoretically require electronic usage. (Though I doubt that would ever happen.)

At the Las Vegas Masters in 2006, MonRoi were kind enough to offer me the ability to have 36 devices for use at the event (one for each player) and to live broadcast the games. I made the decision that this would be the official scoresheet for the event and players were told they had to use it. Despite some objections to the new technology, all players complied with the request, although some did initially also keep a paper scoresheet too. However, after a couple of rounds I don’t think any players were using the paper and pen method any more and just chose to use the MonRoi for the remainder of the tournament. (Most of these players also went onto the National Open immediately afterwards and were requesting to use the limited MonRoi’s available rather than a paper scoresheet at that event too!)

I work at most of the major CCA events and there the top players are requested to use a MonRoi but it is not required. The same is happening at this year’s US Championship. I guess Bill Goichberg does not want to annoy his customer base although in the example above most of the players have returned to play in other events I have organized since.

[tanstaafl]

I’ve seen tournaments where SOME of the (higher) boards were required to use the provided scorekeeping device – but those were DGT boards, not MonRois. I also saw the players keeping a paper score. (which they didn’t really have to do, I believe).

In the past, I’ve kept score in duplicate because I was required to use a tournament-provided scoresheet but I wanted a copy in my scorebook. I suppose a TD could tell me not to do this, but nobody ever has. I suppose the MonRoi would be treated the same way MOST of the time.

[relyea]

FWIW, when I’m organizing a tournament in which I require that the games be turned in, I’ll borrow the scorebook from players who use one after the game. I’ve never had a problem with that, and after all, the scoresheet belongs to me, right?

Alex Relyea

[edgy]

@fantasychess

At the Las Vegas Masters in 2006, MonRoi were kind enough to offer me the ability to have 36 devices for use at the event (one for each player) and to live broadcast the games. I made the decision that this would be the official scoresheet for the event and players were told they had to use it.

I must remember never to play in one of your tournaments.

[fpawn]

@fantasychess

Despite some objections to the new technology, all players complied with the request, although some did initially also keep a paper scoresheet too. However, after a couple of rounds I don’t think any players were using the paper and pen method any more and just chose to use the MonRoi for the remainder of the tournament.

I played in the 2006 Las Vegas Master. Nonetheless, I have filled out a paper scoresheet to supplement the MonRoi in most tournaments that I used the electronic device, including the 2007 US Championship. Don’t get me wrong: the MonRoi is easy to use and I’m quite comfortable with it. And whatever problems that I have had with MonRoi were with the company and some of their public relations tactics over the years.

However, like all technology, there’s always a chance of something going wrong in time pressure (e.g. battery goes out, mess up on notation or you drop your stylus and can’t reach it–yes, I had that once). Plus it is easy to get confused with how many moves are left until time control. (I once won a important game at move 40 because my opponent didn’t bother to make his obvious reply in the last 45 seconds.) Regardless of whether score keeping is required under 5 minutes, technology problems are just a distraction that you don’t need to have. Of course, having the paper scoresheet is merely insurance; if I’m low on time, I might switch to using just one and then update the other later.

Now if I owned a MonRoi and used it for every one of my games, then I probably would be more confident in my ability to use it and handle anything that could go wrong.

Michael Aigner

[ppwchess]

@fpawn

However, like all technology, there’s always a chance of something going wrong in time pressure (e.g. battery goes out,

I’ve had that happen more then once. I grab a score sheet, start at the move where I lost power. When I get home I plug it in, and put the written moves in, and save the game. I’m glad it stays at the current position if the power is turned off before saving.

@fpawn

mess up on notation or

The first tournament I used it, I messed up my notation. I didn’t know I could just go back to the position where the error was, make the change and then go back to actual move. I lost a lot of time back tracking 8 moves and re-inputting them.

@fpawn

you drop your stylus and can’t reach it–yes, I had that once).

That’s why I’m usually chewing on my stylus when not using it. I’ve had it roll onto the floor, and not be able to find it. If I keep it in my hand then I tend to tap it on the table, and have my opponent or neighbor get annoyed with me.

@fpawn

Plus it is easy to get confused with how many moves are left until time control. (I once won a important game at move 40 because my opponent didn’t bother to make his obvious reply in the last 45 seconds.)

I had suggested to Zeljka that there should be a way when putting in the information about the game, that the time control be put in, and that on the notation view the 40th move (or what ever move # for 1st control) be highlighted. She wasn’t sure if it was legal. I didn’t see a problem with that since players tend to underline or circle the move #. I don’t think it was a feature that could be programmed in.

@fpawn

Regardless of whether score keeping is required under 5 minutes, technology problems are just a distraction that you don’t need to have. Of course, having the paper scoresheet is merely insurance; if I’m low on time, I might switch to using just one and then update the other later.

I like keep score even when below 5 minutes. I find I can record the move faster on the Mon Roi, However I am more prone to moving the wrong piece or wrong square when I’m rushing. Once I make that type of error, if it can’t be fixed without losing time, I stop keeping score.

@fpawn

Now if I owned a MonRoi and used it for every one of my games, then I probably would be more confident in my ability to use it and handle anything that could go wrong.

Michael Aigner

Having recorded close to 1,000 games on it, I’ve probably seen everything that could possibly go wrong with it. Even though it’s pretty simple to use, in the heat of battle I think it’s pretty easy to get flustered if some goes wrong and you don’t know the quick fix.

[sloan]

Hmmm…an interesting TD question.

Suppose the Organizer stipulates a particular scoresheet (perhaps a MonRoi, perhaps something else - I don’t think it matters).

Further, suppose a player wants to also keep score in his own scorebook.

Now, so far, so good - I’ve never seen a TD I trust claim that he would not allow the player to keep score
on both. It’s fairly common for players using a MonRoi for the first time to keep a parallel score on paper. (to be consistent, let’s call the Organizer’s version the “scoresheet” and the player’s private copy the “scorebook”)

But…suppose there’s a claim where the “scoresheet” can (must) be used to support the claim. (Say, a time forfeit claim where the opponent presents a scoresheet attempting to prove that he has made the time control).

Suppose the Organizer’s scoresheet is inadequate (missed moves, whatever). Can the player submit his personal scorebook in support of his claim?

Offhand, I think I can make a reasonable argument either way. So…if you’ve already started your reply with the words “Of course…”, please reconsider.

[rfeditor]

@sloan

Hmmm…an interesting TD question.

Suppose the Organizer stipulates a particular scoresheet (perhaps a MonRoi, perhaps something else - I don’t think it matters).

Further, suppose a player wants to also keep score in his own scorebook.

Now, so far, so good - I’ve never seen a TD I trust claim that he would not allow the player to keep score
on both. It’s fairly common for players using a MonRoi for the first time to keep a parallel score on paper. (to be consistent, let’s call the Organizer’s version the “scoresheet” and the player’s private copy the “scorebook”)

But…suppose there’s a claim where the “scoresheet” can (must) be used to support the claim. (Say, a time forfeit claim where the opponent presents a scoresheet attempting to prove that he has made the time control).

Suppose the Organizer’s scoresheet is inadequate (missed moves, whatever). Can the player submit his personal scorebook in support of his claim?

Offhand, I think I can make a reasonable argument either way. So…if you’ve already started your reply with the words “Of course…”, please reconsider.

I’d allow it. The player is not getting any unfair advantage from doing this; he’s handicapping himself by wasting time recording the moves twice. What I wouldn’t allow him to do is combine the two. (E.g., one move missing from scoresheet A and a different move missing from scoresheet B = complete scoresheet? No.)

[ppwchess]

@rfeditor

@sloan

Hmmm…an interesting TD question.

Suppose the Organizer stipulates a particular scoresheet (perhaps a MonRoi, perhaps something else - I don’t think it matters).

Further, suppose a player wants to also keep score in his own scorebook.

Now, so far, so good - I’ve never seen a TD I trust claim that he would not allow the player to keep score
on both. It’s fairly common for players using a MonRoi for the first time to keep a parallel score on paper. (to be consistent, let’s call the Organizer’s version the “scoresheet” and the player’s private copy the “scorebook”)

But…suppose there’s a claim where the “scoresheet” can (must) be used to support the claim. (Say, a time forfeit claim where the opponent presents a scoresheet attempting to prove that he has made the time control).

Suppose the Organizer’s scoresheet is inadequate (missed moves, whatever). Can the player submit his personal scorebook in support of his claim?

Offhand, I think I can make a reasonable argument either way. So…if you’ve already started your reply with the words “Of course…”, please reconsider.

I’d allow it. The player is not getting any unfair advantage from doing this; he’s handicapping himself by wasting time recording the moves twice. What I wouldn’t allow him to do is combine the two. (E.g., one move missing from scoresheet A and a different move missing from scoresheet B = complete scoresheet? No.)

Interesting question. I’m inclined to agree with John on this. If a player is willing to keep two scores I see no reason to penalize him just because the “official scoresheet” is messed up, and his personal scorebook is not. I don’t see the second score as outside assistance. If anything it may be a hindrance since it’s easy to mess up one or both of them during the course of a game.

[fantasychess]

@sloan

Hmmm…an interesting TD question.

Suppose the Organizer stipulates a particular scoresheet (perhaps a MonRoi, perhaps something else - I don’t think it matters).

Further, suppose a player wants to also keep score in his own scorebook.

Now, so far, so good - I’ve never seen a TD I trust claim that he would not allow the player to keep score
on both. It’s fairly common for players using a MonRoi for the first time to keep a parallel score on paper. (to be consistent, let’s call the Organizer’s version the “scoresheet” and the player’s private copy the “scorebook”)

But…suppose there’s a claim where the “scoresheet” can (must) be used to support the claim. (Say, a time forfeit claim where the opponent presents a scoresheet attempting to prove that he has made the time control).

Suppose the Organizer’s scoresheet is inadequate (missed moves, whatever). Can the player submit his personal scorebook in support of his claim?

Offhand, I think I can make a reasonable argument either way. So…if you’ve already started your reply with the words “Of course…”, please reconsider.

I have thought about this and at the latest New England Masters I informed the participants, and posted on the website, the following:

@"New England Masters 2008 Regulations [newenglandmasters.com/regulations.htm

(http://www.newenglandmasters.com/regulations.htm)"]
Players may be requested to use an electronic scoresheet during their games to enable the live broadcast on the internet. In this case, the player may also keep a paper scoresheet for their own records, although not necessary. However in this case, the electronic scoresheet will be the official scoresheet for the game in progress and will be used for verification of any necessary claims.

[fpawn]

@sloan

Hmmm…an interesting TD question.

The problem with forcing a player to use an official scoresheet is that the organizer becomes responsible when there’s a technical problem. Imagine if a device turns off (battery dies) and a player is under a minute with the 30 second FIDE increment. Or in my case, what if I fumble the stylus and, being disabled, I can’t pick it up? (It falls under my wheelchair.) Will the organizer instantly jump and give me a new one? Remember that my clock is running…

Michael Aigner

P.S. I have never invoked the special rules for scorekeeping by disabled players although I am well aware of them. I do, however, occasionally drop my pencil. It isn’t a problem most of the time, but I do keep a spare just in case.

[Ron_Suarez]

Personal Mode: ON

A possible solution is to have a couple of spare styluses. In fact there are universal types of these available. Some are actually pens with multiple writing options like the stylus. If you were going to play in a tournament where these devices were being provided, having a stylus or some in your possession would make life a lot easier. Do you bring your own pencils?

Also, the dead battery is an interesting situation. Isn’t there a way to charge the battery before the game? I do know that these things are designed to last a few games. Do they have a battery indicator to tell if it is running low or not?

[Matt_Phelps]

@fpawn

@sloan

Hmmm…an interesting TD question.

The problem with forcing a player to use an official scoresheet is that the organizer becomes responsible when there’s a technical problem. Imagine if a device turns off (battery dies) and a player is under a minute with the 30 second FIDE increment. Or in my case, what if I fumble the stylus and, being disabled, I can’t pick it up? (It falls under my wheelchair.) Will the organizer instantly jump and give me a new one? Remember that my clock is running…

Michael Aigner

P.S. I have never invoked the special rules for scorekeeping by disabled players although I am well aware of them. I do, however, occasionally drop my pencil. It isn’t a problem most of the time, but I do keep a spare just in case.

Michael,

In either case, and this is a point many players forget, stopping the clock and asking for TD assistance is the proper thing to do. Then the situation gets resolved, and no one loses time. If the TD feels this was done intentionally, time penalties can always be imposed.

-Matt

[LaughingVulcan]

@Ron Suarez

Personal Mode: ON

A possible solution is to have a couple of spare styluses. In fact there are universal types of these available. Some are actually pens with multiple writing options like the stylus. If you were going to play in a tournament where these devices were being provided, having a stylus or some in your possession would make life a lot easier. Do you bring your own pencils?

Also, the dead battery is an interesting situation. Isn’t there a way to charge the battery before the game? I do know that these things are designed to last a few games. Do they have a battery indicator to tell if it is running low or not?

I can only speak for my Palm T|X, not the MonRoi… (Though display and form factor similarities make me wonder in the MonRoi is built on Palm technology. - No idea about that for sure, though.)

Anyway, my T|X does have a battery display and also does give warnings when the power is extremely low and the unit is approaching auto-shutoff. While I haven’t bought one for myself yet, there are companies that make emergency plug-into-adapter-jack secondary power supplies. (It’s about $9.95 for the Palm.)

Also, as a real “low-tech” solution: The latest Palm styli for the T series, if you remove the end-cap, contains an ink pen tip.

I’ve used my Palm locally for recording unrated games using Chess Tiger software in 2-player mode. After asking my opponent, of course.

But I’d say that having the convenience of an electronic scorekeeping device means one has to plan for contingencies. (Just like, even with low-tech, one should have a spare pencil…)