I was looking over the rule book, trying to figure out what kind of time controls I could use to set up a different type of tournament, and it seems that you can deduct the amount of time in the delay from the primary time control. (I think that everybody knows this.) This means that G/25 + 5 second delay can be dual rated.
My questions are twofold. First, can we do this with non-standard delay, ie can G/20 + 10 be dual rated.
Second, what is the fastest time control that can be rated? Is G/3 + 2 second delay ratable?
I was afraid somebody was going to ask this, sooner or later. It seems there might be a loophole in the rules here.
By that logic, G/10 + 20 could be dual-rated, or even G/5 + 25 or, for that matter, G/1 + 29.
I think the rule OUGHT to be that the maximum minutes that can be deducted from the main time should be either the default delay seconds (5 regular, 3 quick, or 2 blitz) or the actual delay seconds, whichever is less. Maybe the rules committee should think about this and come up with something.
I would think so (as blitz, which is currently being rated as quick) since the minutes deducted is equal to the delay seconds, and the delay is the default delay for that type of event.
Having a G/20 (10/in), would in my judgement only be quick rated. As the player would need to make 60 moves (60 moves x 10 seconds = 5:00 minutes) just to have 30 minutes. If a person makes only one move and let the clock run down to zero (flag fall). It would only take 20:10 minutes, before the person would lose the game. Under the delay to be ratable for the fastest lose as dual ratable would be G/25 (t/d 5) plus one move would be (25 + (0:05 x 1)= 25:05) 25:05 minutes.
For the second question, G/3 (t/d 2) would be the fastest ratable time control. Do have a problem with taking time off for a blitz. If it was G/5 or G/5 (t/d 2) would not have a problem. Taking 2 minutes or 120 seconds off the clock, would need to make 60 moves ( 2 seconds / 120 seconds = 60 moves) just to have five minutes. With blitz its’ common to win or lose on time.
If you’re clock falls before you made you’re 60 move, you would have used less then 5 minutes on you’re clock. If you lost on time on your 45 moves, you would have used (G/3 + (2 x 45) = 4:30) 4:30 minutes. With the fastest way to lose a blitz game under G/3 (t/d 2), would make your first move and let the clock run down to zero (flag fall). It would only take (3 + (0:02 x 1)= 3:02) 3:02 minutes to lose a blitz game and still have it ratable. Never going to have any blitz tournament with a G/3 (t/d 2) or G/4 (t/d 2), only will have it as G/5 or G/5 (t/d 2).
2. Claim of insufficient losing chances. A player must have less than one minute of remaining time to make a claim. This means that if the claim is denied, one minute is subtracted from claimant’s time, causing an automatic loss. All other procedures are the same as those described in 14H.
14H. Claim of insufficient losing chances in sudden death.
14H1. Explanation. This procedure is not available for games in which a clock is being used with time delay, whether the game begins with such a clock or one is added during the game … .
5F. Standard timer for sudden death.
TD Tip: Delay mode and Bronstein mode are equivalent.
The tournament director has the right to shorten the basic time control, up to the number of minutes equal to the time delay used in seconds.
If a person use time delay during a blitz game, would be no claim of insufficient losing chances. With a time delay clock, the tournament director has the right to shorten the basic time controls. This will make G/3 (t/d 2) and G/4 (t/d 2) acceptable. The tournament director has the right.
If the clock set at G/3 (t/d 2), players have no right to make a claim of insufficient losing chances, players are at a faster time control. If the flag falls before the 60 move, will have less then five minutes in the game. If its’ set at G/5, could make a claim of insufficient losing chances, when there is less then one minute on the clock.
When I first ran a rated Blitz tournament I ran 4/1, then someone pointed out that 4/2 was allowed. I never actually read the rules on it and just accepted that 4/2 was standard for Blitz. I think I’ll leave my tournaments at 4/2 rather than using 3/2 though, since 3/2 is a little fast for my taste (when looking for a semi-meaningful game, I like 1/0 for fun just fine).
I suspect that at the time Bill Goichberg (as ED) made the decision to extend quick chess ratings to Blitz time controls (when Walter Browne’s BCA folded), he wasn’t thinking about the impact of delay time controls.
Personally, I don’t think anything faster than G/25+5seconds should be ratable under the regular system, and I suspect the Ratings Committee might not want to go that far if it were left up to them.
Also, I don’t think anything faster than G/5 should be ratable as a quick event. I don’t know that the Ratings Committee has considered that, they weren’t all that happy with the unilateral decision to extend quick chess down to G/5.
I guess that means G/3+2 seconds is quick/blitz ratable. What about G/0+5 seconds?
The USCF blitz rules, were written at a time when blitz was not ratable. If Tim Just and Daniel Burg understood the USCF was going to have blitz ratable – they would have spent some extra time.
In all the years I have been in blitz games, or been with people in blitz games, or people talking of blitz games. With twenty-five years in and out with chess, never recall someone demanding a draw. Asking for a draw in blitz is as much fun as someone resigning in blitz. If someone made a claim against me with insufficient losing chances in blitz, that would be a first.
With G/4 (t/d 2), you are taking 60 seconds off the clock. Both players would need to make 30 moves during the game to get back the minute (2 seconds x 30 moves = 60 seconds / 1 minute).
With G/3 (t/d 2), you are taking 120 seconds off the clock. Both players would need to make 60 moves during the game to get back the two minutes (2 seconds x 60 moves = 120 seconds / 2 minutes).
With having any game, its’ common for the game lasting longer then 30 moves. Its’ not always the norm for the game to last longer then 60 moves. Sure, a game can last shorter then 30 moves. It its’ less then 30 moves, someone blunders or resigns the game. If the tournament director did take time off the clock in blitz. Would find G/4 (t/d 2) is fair and G/3 (t/d 2) is very harsh.
The organizer (or TD) is allowed to deduct UP TO as many minutes from the main time as there are seconds of delay. For a regular-rated event with a 5-second delay, either 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, or 0 minutes may be deducted. For quick-rated with 3 seconds, either 3, 2, 1, or 0 minutes. For blitz with 2 seconds, either 2, 1, or 0 minutes.
Most regular-rated tournaments seem to subtract either 5 minutes or nothing. For quick, 2 minutes (rather than 3) is common. Likewise, for blitz, 1 minute is probably preferable to 2 – especially since, without scorekeeping, many moves will be played in less than 2 seconds, making the crossover point even higher than the 60 moves Doug Forsythe is fond of telling us about.
Thought it would be in increment then delay. Do think you were thinking in increment then delay. If its’ in increment, then you would have this problem.
(00/in) = (time/increment)
G/10 (20/in), it would take 60 moves to make it a G/30 (0:20 x 60 = 20:00) + 10:00 = 30:00 minutes.
G/5 (25/in), it would take 60 moves to make it a G/30 (0:25 x 60 = 25:00) + 5:00 = 30:00 minutes.
G/1 (29/in), it would take 60 moves to make it a G/30 (0:29 x 60 = 29:00) + 1:00 = 30:00 minutes.
Bill, I will play you a ratable game at G/1 (29/in). I just want you to drink a 2 liter bottle of Coco Cola before we start the game. If you got to go to the bathroom, you got 1:29 or 89 seconds to get back to the game.
I think it’s useful to distinguish between rules and ratings.
From a rules standpoint:
Regular means (or should mean) G/30 or slower, 5-second delay by default, with possible minor adjustments permitted in the main time to compensate for the delay.
Quick means (or should mean) G/10 through G/29, 3-second delay by default, with possible minor adjustments permitted in the main time to compensate for the delay.
Blitz means (or should mean) G/5 through G/9, 2-second delay by default (but 0-second delay permitted without advance notice), with possible minor adjustments permitted in the main time to compensate for any delay.
From a ratings standpoint, currently:
A. Regular tournaments are regular-rated. Some (G/30 through G/60) are also quick-rated.
B. Quick tournaments are quick-rated.
C. Blitz tournaments are quick-rated.
If you “don’t think anything faster than G/5 should be ratable as a quick event”, the best solution would be through ratings, not rules. Set up a separate blitz rating system, substituting “blitz-rated” for “quick-rated” in C. above. Then you won’t have to worry about G/3, d/2 being quick-rated, and the rules don’t have to be changed.
Bill, I think this is one area where the rules and ratings issues are so intermingled that both require simultaneous consideration.
The new ratiings programming was designed to be able to support multiple ratings systems beyond the 3 currently offered by the USCF: regular, quick and correspondence.
There was a time when I thought there would be a rush to implement a separate USCF Blitz Rating system. It appears there is no large demand for it, at least not at this time. Once the capability to implement such a ratings sytem quickly is in place, a time now measurable in days if not hours, there may be more demand for it.
However, by most accounts I think the quick system has proven to be at best marginally successful, and dual-rating of G/30 to G/60 doesn’t seem to have stimulated much demand for quick events.
The issue of how time-delay controls impact which rating system an event is eligible for also has both rules and ratings implications.
Talking about what ratable system can be ratable at the fastest way is a issue for the policy board at the 2005 U.S. Open. When the 5th edition was written, the fastest time control was G/7 (t/d 3). With the blitz was ratable, it left the rules for regular and quick as the only guide.
Having the major change with blitz in the 5th edition, with a 2 second time delay and ratable. It has sent shock waves into the local clubs, were blitz is used as a fun game. Only know of one director, that will have a ratable blitz. Even the Michigan Chess Association, did not have or advertise having the Michigan Speed Championship ratable.
Having ratable blitz at G/3 (t/d 2), is one way to kill off a ratable tournament. Having blitz at G/5 (t/d 2), is the other to kill off a ratable tournament. As G/5 (t/d 2) + 30 moves = G/6, G/5 (t/d 2) + 60 moves = G/7. If a director has G/5, G/6 and G/7, used during the same tournament. The players would call that cheating and unfair.
I know players will say someone will make a move faster then 2 seconds. Have made moves faster then the delay time. It does not matter if a person makes a move in one second or two seconds in blitz. It does not matter if a person make a move in one second or five seconds in a (t/d 5) – as the unused delay time is forfeited. If the delay time is used or forfeited, it still adds up to the used time per-move.
Do not see the logic, of finding the fastest ratable time controls. As there are thousands of over the board players unwilling to enter a tournament with less then G/90.
Have been running USCF ratable blitz tournaments every month now since March, 2004. So far I have never been questioned about whether a time-delay can be used (in which case I would say no anyway) and have never had a claim of insufficient losing chances, presumably because people forget that type of thing in the midst of a time scramble.
People love the idea of having their blitz games rated, although personally I don’t like the cost of doing such events, which however is getting a little better with the cheaper prices for online submission of the rating reports.
One question I would like to ask though is that I have been asked to organize a couple of 8-player round robin events so that a TD can get the necessary experience to qualify for a higher level. He said they have to be at least G/10 to qualify, but does this also mean they could be G/7 +3 sec time delay instead?
I think this loophole needs some clarification as it affects a lot more than just the ratings.
Going from a club director to a local director, would need the quick event be a swiss event not a round robin. If it is a quick swiss, two quick events is equal to one swiss event (Look on page 247 to 248, official rules of chess). Only two quick swiss count towards satisfactory performance for taking the test. If its’ a swiss quick event, G/10 or G/7 (t/d 3) will qualify as one half norm.
Even though it is off-topic, the relevant TD category that is being attempted in this case is National TD. The two quick-chess tournaments that I am trying to arrange are so that he may meet the experience requirement criteria set out in 38b.
The ruling states that two quick-chess category R tournaments are required. Does G/7, 3 second time-delay qualify for these? In fact does blitz qualify now also for this requirement?
