Rule 5B2

[nolan]

Rule 5B2 says:

5B2.
The organizer is to indicate the time control, including the delay or increment in all advance publicity as minutes (mm) and seconds (ss). e.g. G/90 inc/30 (or +30); G/30 d/5; G/10 d/3; G/5 d/0.

(Note that one of the examples listed has a delay of zero.)

The office is actively enforcing 5B2 in TLAs and email blasts. About a third of the email blasts we get have to be resubmitted in order to comply with 5B2.

‘All advance publicity’ means 5B2 also applies to organizer-printed flyers or postcards and the organizer’s website.

The office may ask the Rules Comittee and the Delegates in 2014 for clarification as to whether the office is expected to check an organizer’s website for 5B2 compliance if the URL is in the TLA or email blast and whether a calendar of events needs to comply with 5B2 in a short (eg, 1 or 2 line) list of upcoming events.

[eastside]

@nolan

Rule 5B2 says:

5B2.
The organizer is to indicate the time control, including the delay or increment in all advance publicity as minutes (mm) and seconds (ss). e.g. G/90 inc/30 (or +30); G/30 d/5; G/10 d/3; G/5 d/0.

(Note that one of the examples listed has a delay of zero.)

The office is actively enforcing 5B2 in TLAs and email blasts. About a third of the email blasts we get have to be resubmitted in order to comply with 5B2.

Excellent. Glad to know that this is being actively enforced.

@nolan

‘All advance publicity’ means 5B2 also applies to organizer-printed flyers or postcards and the organizer’s website.

The office may ask the Rules Comittee and the Delegates in 2014 for clarification as to whether the office is expected to check an organizer’s website for 5B2 compliance if the URL is in the TLA or email blast and whether a calendar of events needs to comply with 5B2 in a short (eg, 1 or 2 line) list of upcoming events.

I’d like to see this enforcement, if it’s not too time-consuming.

[BobMessenger]

@nolan

The office may ask the Rules Comittee and the Delegates in 2014 for clarification as to whether … a calendar of events needs to comply with 5B2 in a short (eg, 1 or 2 line) list of upcoming events.

To me it’s just common sense that of course an organizer shouldn’t have to list the time control (or possibly multiple time controls) for each tournament in an ad or web page which is simply a list of upcoming events. Maybe rule 5B2 should be amended to make this clear.

[nolan]

In general, I agree, but ‘all advance publicity’ doesn’t seem to leave a lot of wiggle room in it. But how comprehensive should that advance publicity need to be before 5B2 applies?

The people making rules seldom get stuck with interpreting and enforcing them.

[Bob_McAdams]

@nolan

In general, I agree, but ‘all advance publicity’ doesn’t seem to leave a lot of wiggle room in it. But how comprehensive should that advance publicity need to be before 5B2 applies?

The people making rules seldom get stuck with interpreting and enforcing them.

Another thing to consider, in my opinion, is the audience toward which an ad is directed. In an ad for Chess Life or Chess Life for Kids, it’s reasonable to assume that people are going to know what, e.g., G/30 d5 means. But that’s not a reasonable assumption to make about a poster placed on a grocery store bulletin board. At some point, I think you run the risk of scaring off newcomers from participating in tournaments by making it sound more complicated than it really is. Keep in mind that specifying a delay doesn’t prevent participants from bringing (and sometimes using) non-delay clocks. It simply says that (1) delay clocks are allowed, and (2) in cases where there’s a dispute about whose clock to use in a game, a delay clock automatically trumps a non-delay clock.

Bob

[BobMessenger]

@nolan

In general, I agree, but ‘all advance publicity’ doesn’t seem to leave a lot of wiggle room in it. But how comprehensive should that advance publicity need to be before 5B2 applies?

My interpretation of 5B2 is that if the time control is mentioned in advance publicity the delay or increment has to be mentioned as well.

To make this clear I’m thinking of submitting an ADM to revise 5B2 so that it reads:

5B2. In all advance publicity which mentions the time control, the organizer is to indicate the time control, including the delay or increment, as minutes (mm) and seconds (ss), e.g. G/90 inc 30 (or +30); G/30 d5; G/10 d3; G/5 d0.

I’ve changed the notation a little to reflect current practice.

[timjust]

Please be aware that any rules changes at the 2014 Delegates convention will not be reflected in the 6th edition. They will, however, be posted in the changes document that gets posted on-line on 1-1 2015.

[BobMessenger]

@BobMessenger

To make this clear I’m thinking of submitting an ADM to revise 5B2 so that it reads:

5B2. In all advance publicity which mentions the time control, the organizer is to indicate the time control, including the delay or increment, as minutes (mm) and seconds (ss), e.g. G/90 inc 30 (or +30); G/30 d5; G/10 d3; G/5 d0.

Come to think of it “specifies the time control” sounds more rule-like than “mentions the time control”.

[nolan]

Bob, if your proposed motion were to come up at the Delegates Meeting, how would you respond to those who asked questions like this:

How complete does pre-event publicity need to be before a time control is required?

Can the organizer leave the time control information completely out of a TLA?

Are these potentially dumb questions? Perhaps, but I’ve learned over the years that if you imagine the dumbest question someone could ask, someone will probably ask an even dumber one.

[jwiewel]

@nolan

…
Are these potentially dumb questions? Perhaps, but I’ve learned over the years that if you imagine the dumbest question someone could ask, someone will probably ask an even dumber one.

If even something can be made fool-proof it cannot be made dang-fool-proof because dang fools are so ingenious at doing foolish things.

[BobMessenger]

@nolan

Bob, if your proposed motion were to come up at the Delegates Meeting, how would you respond to those who asked questions like this:

How complete does pre-event publicity need to be before a time control is required?

I think it should be up to the organizer. I’ve mailed out postcards and sent email which list the sections but not the time control(s), the schedule etc., referring the reader to the TLA or the MACA website for further details. I do think it’s a good idea to specify the time control in the full details, wherever those are posted.

@nolan

Can the organizer leave the time control information completely out of a TLA?

Given my proposed revision to 5B2 and my interpretation of it, specifying the time control in the TLA isn’t/wouldn’t be required by the rulebook. I do think the time control should be specified in the TLA. Maybe the USCF office or ED/EB could impose this as an administrative requirement.

I’ll give this some thought. I might change my ADM to say that the time control must be specified in the TLA and in the full tournament details, wherever those are posted.

[nolan]

What about a small display ad in Chess Life? What about online TLAs? What about a website that has a URL pointing to it somewhere in Chess Life or on the USCF website?

The current problem is that taken literally 5B2 has very little wiggle room in it, and when the office interpreted it that way, more than one organizer squawked. In general it is better for the Delegates (and thus the rulebook) to say what policy they want than for the office to have to try to infer it.

[BobMessenger]

@nolan

What about a small display ad in Chess Life?

Given my interpretation of the current version of 5B2, or if my ADM passes (starting in 2015): it doesn’t have to specify the time control, but if it does it has to specify the delay or increment.

@nolan

What about online TLAs?

Given my interpretation of the current version of 5B2: they don’t have to specify the time control, but if they do they have to specify the delay or increment.

If my modified ADM passes (starting in 2015): they have to specify the time control, given that they are TLAs.

@nolan

What about a website that has a URL pointing to it somewhere in Chess Life or on the USCF website?

Given my interpretation of the current version of 5B2: it doesn’t have to specify the time control, but if it does it has to specify the delay or increment.

If my modified ADM passes (starting in 2015): assuming the website includes the full details of the tournament it has to specify the time control.

[William_H_Stokes]

@Bob McAdams

@nolan

In general, I agree, but ‘all advance publicity’ doesn’t seem to leave a lot of wiggle room in it. But how comprehensive should that advance publicity need to be before 5B2 applies?

The people making rules seldom get stuck with interpreting and enforcing them.

Another thing to consider, in my opinion, is the audience toward which an ad is directed. In an ad for Chess Life or Chess Life for Kids, it’s reasonable to assume that people are going to know what, e.g., G/30 d5 means. But that’s not a reasonable assumption to make about a poster placed on a grocery store bulletin board. At some point, I think you run the risk of scaring off newcomers from participating in tournaments by making it sound more complicated than it really is. Keep in mind that specifying a delay doesn’t prevent participants from bringing (and sometimes using) non-delay clocks. It simply says that (1) delay clocks are allowed, and (2) in cases where there’s a dispute about whose clock to use in a game, a delay clock automatically trumps a non-
delay clock.

Bob

In a sufficiently advertised tournament with no time delay does (2) in this post still stand? If so, why?

[Bob_McAdams]

@William H Stokes

@Bob McAdams

@nolan

In general, I agree, but ‘all advance publicity’ doesn’t seem to leave a lot of wiggle room in it. But how comprehensive should that advance publicity need to be before 5B2 applies?

The people making rules seldom get stuck with interpreting and enforcing them.

Another thing to consider, in my opinion, is the audience toward which an ad is directed. In an ad for Chess Life or Chess Life for Kids, it’s reasonable to assume that people are going to know what, e.g., G/30 d5 means. But that’s not a reasonable assumption to make about a poster placed on a grocery store bulletin board. At some point, I think you run the risk of scaring off newcomers from participating in tournaments by making it sound more complicated than it really is. Keep in mind that specifying a delay doesn’t prevent participants from bringing (and sometimes using) non-delay clocks. It simply says that (1) delay clocks are allowed, and (2) in cases where there’s a dispute about whose clock to use in a game, a delay clock automatically trumps a non-
delay clock.

Bob

In a sufficiently advertised tournament with no time delay does (2) in this post still stand? If so, why?

In a tournament with no time delay, neither (1) nor (2) is true. It is not permissible to use a clock which is set to have a delay.

Bob

[eastside]

Delay-capable clocks can be used in d/0 time controls, so long as the delay can be set to 0 or otherwise turned off.

[nolan]

I don’t think that’s exactly what he asked, Bob.

His question appears to be:

In an event where there is no time delay or increment, is a digital clock (with delay/increment turned off) still considered preferred equipment over an analog clock?

[William_H_Stokes]

@nolan

I don’t think that’s exactly what he asked, Bob.

His question appears to be:

In an event where there is no time delay or increment, is a digital clock (with delay/increment turned off) still considered preferred equipment over an analog clock?

Yes, that is what I was trying to ask.

[eastside]

@William H Stokes

@nolan

I don’t think that’s exactly what he asked, Bob.

His question appears to be:

In an event where there is no time delay or increment, is a digital clock (with delay/increment turned off) still considered preferred equipment over an analog clock?

Yes, that is what I was trying to ask.

The first sentence of Rule 42D may be useful here. (Emphasis added is mine.)

@USCF Rules of Chess

A properly set clock with time delay or increment capability is preferable to any other clock in a game with any sudden death time control.

[William_H_Stokes]

@eastside

@William H Stokes

@nolan

I don’t think that’s exactly what he asked, Bob.

His question appears to be:

In an event where there is no time delay or increment, is a digital clock (with delay/increment turned off) still considered preferred equipment over an analog clock?

Yes, that is what I was trying to ask.

The first sentence of Rule 42D may be useful here. (Emphasis added is mine.)

@USCF Rules of Chess

A properly set clock with time delay or increment capability is preferable to any other clock in a game with any sudden death time control.

Thanks for this information. Who ever said only plants were capable of photosynthesis was wrong.