are there any minimum standards for TD’s? there is a SoCal TD named Daniel Nystrom who is getting old, and no longer has all of his wits about him.
Not because of ill heath will the federation remove a active tournament director. If something happen to your mental judgement, do you want your name on the tournament directors revocations and suspensions: as of April 2004 supplement there are twenty-two.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
thanks for the info.
Maybe there should be. You bring up a valid point.
But the problem is the majority of TDs are local volunteers, and they are hard to come by. If we start asking anyone who wants to be a TD to submit to physical and mental evaluatoins, the ranks of volunteers would shrink considerably.
If you and several others are having persistent problems with a TD, it might be worth it to submit a letter to the USCF with several sigantures on it detailing the problems and letting them work it out.
The federation can only deal with a tournament director only when he is acting as a tournament director. If say I have a tournament and take in ten members as adult members to the federation. $49 for a adult, with ten members becomes $490. Then also not send in the tournament, so the tournament is not rated. With all that money would be over $500 just on one tournament. If I do not send in the memberships, if I tell people that this is a rated tournament and then do not even send in the report, then the federation can punnish me or any other director that does this.
What you are asking is a man that is getting older, with his age his mental health for you is not normal. Give this man a break, only this man can make the judgement if he wants to be a director of a tournament. If the federation starts to look at all the directors mental health, were do we stop after that. Do we start to check if the director drinks beer, wine or spirits, as he might be a social drinker, we cannot say the director would be drunk during the tournament. The federation does not want to be the moral police, even if it could were is the capital to fund this project.
Just let the man be, there is no need for punnishment because he is starting to get old. If you feel that his mental judgement is so bad that he cannot direct a tournament, then do not go to his tournament.
Earnest
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
As I understand it, this man was acting as a tournament director. That’s what was said in the post. Therefore, the federation can deal with him.
But it doesn’t do anyone any good if the man is acting as a TD, and then not doing his job. It even hurts you personally, because who would be able to trust any TD, even yourself, if they had a bad experience with this one?
But be aware there are measures available to have a TD suspended or revoked if certain conditions are met. I don’t know right now what they are, but they are in place for a reason. You are right, there is no need to punish a man for getting old, but do you let a person keep on driving a car even when they are so old they are a danger to others? Being a TD means a responsibility to others, and that’s who he’s hurting if he’s incapable of doing his job.
Radishes
Well yes, in most cases they DO let older people continue to drive even when they become a danger. At best, some states may require a vision exam, but not all even do that. I don’t think any, and certainly not many, require a road test. Thus drivers (of all ages) continue to have licenses until they prove they are a danger. And clearly the stakes are much higher driving than they are in directing tournaments! So until a TD proves by their actions that they aren’t capable, let’s not leave the judgment up to others.
Okay, I guess that makes sense to someone.
The person who started this post said the TD was not capable of doing the job. Yes, he was making a judgment about the capablility of that person, but then he doesn’t have the power to revoke or suspend TD privileges. That belongs to the USCF.
But someone has to notify the USCF first that there is an incapable TD, and that belongs to the membership. Once that is done, let the USCF judge if the TD is fit to carry on.
And as for the driving analogy, I know that legally a person may be able to pass the tests and keep their license. That doesn’t mean they should, and it’s often up to the relatives to take the keys away from the older person to keep them safe.
The conditions under which a director may be demoted or decertified by the TDCC are spelled out in somewhat tedious detail on pp. 256-258 of the Rulebook. In order for the TDCC to consider it, someone must file a complaint citing specific actions of the TD (not a general “he’s not doing a good job”).
If a TD is merely annoying the players, rather than violating specific rules, then the proper course is either not to play in his tournments, or to tell the sponsoring club to replace him.
Dear John:
Your last statement was correct, as the person that placed the post was talking that the director was getting old and starting to lose his mind. Only actions at the tournament hall, if done wrong could cause a director too be looked into for his/her misconduct, bye the TDCC.
It is up to the chess club if he use the affilate, or he might also use his own affilate, then there is nothing other then stop going to the tournament. If you can prove that the director has done something that is clear a rule breaking, like changing the results of the game(s), or not reporting tournaments, or failing to send in memberships you have grounds to let the USCF deal with the director.
It is very hard to over turn the ruling of a director, as there are safe guards at the tournament. Making a claim that the director failed in the parings of the tournament, or make a claim the director was supporting someone to win the tournament. These charges are hard to prove, as the federation cannot send a agent to talk with everyone. Even if the TDCC could get the parties email the committee, at best the director would get a warning.
What the author wants is the directors’ de-certification, just on one member that is very hard to perform.As of the April 2004 rating list, there are only twenty-two on the tournament directors recocations ans suspensions, and that list has been a long time since a member has been added or removed. Some of these members have been on that list for years.
This is what I am going to do. I will look at all the members of the revocations and suspensions, as some should have left as a member of the federation. The ones that have left as members, should have been placed on the list when they were current members.
Earnest
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
Maybe. It depends on the reason the TD was suspended. Sending in events when no longer a member (and thus no longer certified as a TD) would seem to be something that would get a TD put on the list in the event the person tried to pass himself off as a TD somewhere.
Warning players about non-certified TD’s is one of the reasons for printing the list, though since for the most part only other TD’s get the supplements it reminds me of the old joke about the guy who lost something at the corner of 1st and Main and was looking for it at the corner of 2nd and Main because the light is better there.
there are only twenty-two on the tournament directors recocations ans suspensions, and that list has been a long time since a member has been added or removed. Some of these members have been on that list for years. >>
This makes it sound like the USCF should be suspending people regularly. Getting on the suspended list requires a pretty severe infraction, not just being a poor director. (If that were the standard we’d have a lot fewer tournaments.)
Studying that list is not especially useful, since the background information is not public. (Nor should it be, since we are talking about a semi-judicial process.) For example, one of the people on the list is a life member, but has been completely out of chess for more than ten years. Four others were decertified for participating in the same scam. But, as I said before, the proper response to a merely “bad TD” is to play in someone else’s tournaments.
Not that many members get or even read the USCF rating lists, this is also on the uscf webpage. Checked the time when most of the former directors left as current members, two went back as far as 1988. Is it strange, a person that has not been a member for 16 years, still has his name printed in the rating list 12 times a year.
Some of the former directors have zero tournaments, then again their memberships expired in the 1990’s, the ones with zero tournaments could be it was before 1991, or they never did send in their first and only tournament.
This was strange, looking in the MSA, ID number 12588985, the membership expired on 1/31/1999, listed as revocations and suspensions in the April 2004 rating list, but listed in the MSA as a club tournament director. This gets better, a life member 10278074, he is on the tournament directors revocations and suspensions on the USCF rating list, April 2004 and the 2003 annual rating list and other rating lists. The federation has him as a club tournament director, he was a director for a tournament on March 7, 2004, and this tournament was rated. Im not picking on this man, I am picking on the federation. With twenty-two members on the list, I have found two errors. Look, this man did something, now he has done his time. For some reason his name is still printed in the rating list as a personia non grata, but glad he wants to direct tournament again.
The federation should look at the list, why have someones name that has not been a active member for 16 years. Then why have someone on the list, when the federation accepted and rated the tournament. If you look at these problems, email Nancy Evens at ratingsmgr@uschess.org.
The reason I checked the revocations and suspensions, as to show how hard it is to get on the list, as I can only see three that are on the list that directored a tournament since 2000. Now the question becomes how hard is it too get off the list.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
I know what you mean, and I totally agree.
Now, it seems everyone felt the original poster didn’t have a good enough case against this TD, and told him so and said there was nothing he could do. OTOH, I assumed that for brevity’s sake he simply didn’t spell out specific actions that might be legitimate causes for concern. What I felt was needed was an answer that said it was possible to complain about a TD to the USCF, but that there also had to be supporting evidence from other players, not just from the poster.
I certainly wouldn’t put a detailed list of wrongs in here because then everyone would get bogged down in what was truly a wrong and what was merely an annoyance.
Oh, sorry. Guess we’re already doing that, huh?
Radishes
The suspended list is not part of the USCF’s member database, though it probably should be.
We need to make some other revisions to MSA, something that will probably happen this summer. That would be a good time to make sure the data MSA shows is consistent with other computer records and with the various printed lists we have.
Hi Radishes:
It would not be a problem for myself if the TDCC started to look more into missconduct of directors. Can understand the feeling of hopelessness some times a director can do something or more clear do nothing.
Do know a director, even talked him to take the local tournament directors test, and he past. Myself and a number of players noticed he never sent in his tournaments. At the time he was a very active director having huge amounts of tournaments each year. There was one tournament I played in December 1999 but was not rated till September 2000. He never sent in my membership to the Michigan Chess Association, he just held off from sending in the reports till someone bought his store out.
The idea of having like 20 or 30 tournaments, not having them sent in till it was sent in as a batch was a slap in the face to me. It was a slap at the people that came to the tournaments and had to hold of months to have their rating changed. He is the only person I can say, he should never direct any tournaments. It has been years since he directed any tournaments, as the members in the state do know his name.
Directors, they are more punnished from the players then anything the federation can or could be willing to do. The word will get out on a poor director, when that happens the director will find smaller and smaller field of players, untill the director stops having tournaments.
You are asking the USCF or the TDCC to look into the misconduct of the directors. Players do not mind so much who the director is, more looking into the site of the tournament, the time control, how far and how eazy it is to get to the site, how is the hall, tables and chairs. Is it easy to get a meal, how many places to eat. Has the past tournaments been large and strong, small and weak, small and strong, small and weak.
When it deals with the director, does he get along with the players, does he get along well with all chess players or only a class of players. The best directors are the ones that can communicate with people, as people will forgive a simple problem if they like a person, are less forgivening for the same simple problem if they have falts, falts in your judgement on how a person should perform their lives. As the author of this article stated that he feels the director is having mental problems because of old age. When you make a warrent claim of his age and the claim his mental health is at falt. This man could have a problem directoring a tournament, but you are making a judgement that his age and decline in mental health is effecting his ability to direct a tournament.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
I thought they did that already. Isn’t that why there is a list of suspended TDs? Where does it come from if not from some investigation?
Okay, I don’t see what your point is here, but let me try.
The author did state that, true. He made a judgment about that TD. What he should do then is gather supporting evidence. He should see if other players are having the same problem and ask them to write about it. Anything he can do to objectively support his postion should be done. If he can’t do this, then he has no case. Otherwise, send the material in and ask the USCF to render judgment. If the USCF rejects his claim, then so be it.
In the case you mentioned, why, once you found out what this director was doing, did you not report him? He was clearly abusing his power, and even though everyone in your area knows his name, what if he comes to my area and starts directing and doing the same things? Then it becomes a matter of your inaction causing problems in my area of the country.
Why are you so against removing directors from the privilege of directing when they are abusing other players? It’s not you doing the removing, it would be the USCF, who would consider your claim to be good or bad. And if they reject your claim, then you might not have had a good one to begin with.
Radishes
TDCC isn’t the tournament police, they can only ‘check up’ on a TD if someone complains. Then they make a recommendation to the Board, which is the body that has the authority to suspend a TD. (And such a suspension can be appealed to the Delegates.)
I’ve know of situations where a member would not file a complaint on a TD, even though the TD appeared to be negligent. The reasons may not have even been chess related.
The whole system is dependent on TD’s doing the right thing. The TD has to abide by the rule book, then send in the rating report promptly. If there are claims of errors in the crosstable (and the USCF gets a LOT of those), the TD is still responsible for the accuracy of the data and has to respond to the claim, sending in corrections where necessary.
The new ratings system will make the TD an increasingly important part of the tournament validation/rating process by giving the TD feedback during the validation process. The event will not be rated until the TD has responded to any validation issues. This could include membership issues (missing ID’s, missing membership data) as well as crosstable issues such as a report that doesn’t make sense or one where there are anomalies in the data which suggest the possibility of an incorrect ID.
In some cases the only response necessary may be ‘Looks OK to me’. but the event will not proceed to the next stage of validation until it passes the first stage.
Dear Radishes:
Myself do not mind if the TDCC and the USCF looks into the problems of a director. With the other director called up the federation a number of times asking if the tournament was rated, even know a large number of people that have done the same.
Look, the federation has a very thin budget, they know that the directors are the most important backbone for chess. Most tournaments just break even with cash flow, most tournaments loss money every time they perform one.
If I have both hats dealing with a tournament, it would be four rounds and each round I charge $5 so entry fee will be $20. If for some strange reason I can get 20 players my net is only $400, take away $75 for rent and the cost of the rating fees, then take away from the prise funds. After the tournament there is very little left. If you feel the director or any director you feel is breaking rules from left and right, the best way for that director to stop directing, stop going to their tournaments.
Myself and a large number of directors, do have plans that they are going to loss money. If I was going to run a tournament just to make money, would only have scholastic tournaments. Charge $20 for entry fee and the one that wins the tournament they get a $10 trophy, with others you can get it down to $5 a trophy or even less if you get bulk. For a adult tournament the total prise fund would not even think of given less then $150. Now I budget out $225 for a tournament, for me to break even going to need 12 people. For my tournaments only look for 10 to 15 players, if i get more people would just sweeten the prise fund.
Now some directors they can get along well with everyone, some they hard to get along but they do what they feel is right. Any director can shows different ideas what can happen at the board, then find different ideas how the rule book would deal with the problem. If you do not like how the director likes how he looks at the rules then stop going to his tournaments.
If the director, like some that just started out on there first tournament, they take the money they get from the tournament, like all the prise funds, all the members that joined or renewed at the tournament then not sending them in. Then the USCF and the TDCC should do something.
If you are just asking about the question on the author that started this post that a director should be replaced just because he is getting old and the author of this post feels the directors mental ability is failing. Then it would be heartless. If the director was keeping the money and not reporting or sending in memberships then we would not be talking about his mental state we would be talking about his greed, then the federation should remove him as a tournament director.
Earnest,
Douglas M. Forsythe, local td
Yes, you do mind. Listen to what you say here:
Now you are saying that even when you know a TD is breaking the rules, then you don’t go to his tournaments, right? So you are willing to let a bad tournament director run tournaments for unsuspecting players and fleece them as long as he can get away with it? And you are not going to tell anyone that what he’s doing is wrong? Now I’m beginning to worry about your mental state.
Oh, so any TD who is incompetent is okay with you to be on the loose to prey on newcomers to the game as long as he knows how to send the money and rating reports in?
I guess you don’t realize there are some mental conditions that can cause a person to forget to do things or be unable to understand what needs to be done. And they can be related to age. Or have you never heard of dementia and Alzheimer’s? This is not greed, it’s a mental state.
It isn’t heartless to turn them in any more than it’s heartless to take the car keys away from an elderly person because they present a danger to others.
But from what little sense I can gather from your postings, you’d let them keep the car keys (their TD certification) and never ride with them (play in one of their tournaments) and hope they don’t hurt someone or have a wreck!
This is too much. I give up.
Radishes