Can the TD intervene to point out that the players have made the required number of moves for the first time control and that the secondary time control should be added?
It seems like it would be allowed by looking at other rules, although it is not listed as a possible intervention by the TD.
The DGT clocks are quirky when having more than one time control with a delay. Adding both time controls together can be bad if there is time pressure before the secondary time control (no flag), so we manually adjust them adding the secondary time control.
but it still doesn’t say whether the TD should intervene to prevent, say, loss of measured time because of the flag fall in non-sudden death. I guess I’ll still keep intervening to point out that the required number of moves have been reached when the clock has not added the secondary time control…
It could be the clock, as the second time controls on the Chronos without the move-counter, will not show the second time control till all the time on the first time control is over. Example, white shows 3:00 on the clock, black shows’ 29:00. White still has 33 minutes left, as the first time control is not over. Black has 29:00 minutes, as the clock is in the second time control. Like the Chronos set like this, as the scoresheet settles the issue not between the scoresheet with move-counter
Even with players with analog clocks, if you did not see the players change the clock your not sure. If the game is 40/90 SD/30, the players should add 30 minutes to the clocks so the second time control will end at 7pm. There are some, not understand the standard practice will remove 30 minutes from the clock. This will make the first and second time controls end at 6pm.
With everything, it is up to the players to make sure the second or other time controls are done. As each clock is different, even the modes can be different with the same clock. The director should have very strong evidence the clocks are erroneously set for the second time control.
I believe the rulebook is silent on this. To some, since it’s not forbidden, it must be okay.
I’m currently leaning toward saying that TDs may be able to do this, as scheduling problems could arise otherwise, and I don’t see how a TD’s intervention here could infringe on any player’s rights - so long as the TD has verified that both players have made the required number of moves. In Sudden-Death, sometimes a TD is allowed to declare a draw in a game where both flags are down.
I believe the rulebook is silent on this. To some, since it’s not forbidden, it must be okay.
I’m currently leaning toward saying that TDs may be able to do this, as scheduling problems could arise otherwise, and I don’t see how a TD’s intervention here could infringe on any player’s rights - so long as the TD has verified that both players have made the required number of moves. In Sudden-Death, sometimes a TD is allowed to declare a draw in a game where both flags are down.
I think it should be fine to do this, since if a dispute arises it will be when the TD could possibly have other problems to deal with. It fits under the rule I just made up about ensuring a smooth tournament and happy players
The only clear area, for the director to check on the second time control would be on an analog clock. If the time control is 40/60 SD/30, the players could forget to add thirty minutes onto the clock. If the director sees both players scoresheets on move 43, with the clock on white as 6:10 and black as 6:05. The director should question the clock, as the clock was not advanced, or the players did finnish the first time controls early.
Do not see an error to ask the players to stop the clock, if the director has a sound question. If the director is asking a question, just to ask a question without merit: the question would be annoying for both players. The director has to have a very sound reason to ask a question.
I would say in most cases yes, but there could be a few pitfalls.
Sometimes player A has not been keeping score and does not realize he has made 40 moves. So he keeps on blitzing for several more moves. Player B, happy to keep player A in the dark, hides his score sheet from player A. In this case it would be a BAD idea for the TD to intervene.
It’s best to wait for things to calm down a bit. As soon as it obvious that both players know they have made 40 moves, then the TD can step in. It does not really matter if the extra hour is added at move 40, or 45, or 50 – the total time for the rest of the game is the same either way.
Doug, the DGT clocks do not behave as you say. There are known bugs with a secondary time control and delay. As far as secondary time controls with delays go, they MUST be set manually.
Bill, even when this is the case (only one player keeping score), 13C8 says that, in non-sudden death, no one “may be forfeited based solely on the evidence of his or her own scoresheet”. Also, according to the TD Tip in 13C9, the TD can be an independent witness that 40 moves have elapsed. This means that if the TD is aware that 40 moves have elapsed, rather than wait for some nastiness when “halt-on-end” has occurred and an indeterminate amount of time has failed to be recorded, it would be better if there was a quick painless intervention early on.
Anyway, that’s my interpretation, and that’s what I did.
Bill, I do agree with what you say though. I was hesitant to intervene, because it IS giving either one or both players more information that they may have, irrespective of completeness of the scoresheets. One or both may think that they are under severe time pressure (some people keep score till the end) and making rushed decisions. As soon as the TD intervenes, they know they can take more time for their moves.
This makes it a questionable thing to do in my mind, no doubt, but since the book is not clear and I want to preserve the atmosphere for the rest of the games (avoid disruption from nasty “halt-on-end” flag beyond 40 moves), I decided intervention is a small price to pay to keep the rest of the tournament on track.
I’m a little unclear on exactly what you are saying here. TD intervention to reset a clock for the second time control should only be considered after one of the flags has fallen (more specifically, only after both players realize that a flag has fallen), so no time pressure is possible. The problem is that some clocks may need to be reset after move 40 (or whatever the time control is), whether a flag has fallen or not. This is extremely undesirable, and my only suggestion is, don’t use that clock.
Was talking about the problem with the analog clocks, as the analog clock has to be set manually if the second time control would not make the flag fall at the right time. Analog clocks are different the DGT clocks, as the DGT clocks are digital as the analog is not.
Do not have a DGT clock, have been thinking of having one for some time. Only know of one person with a DGT clock, he only brings the clock for the tournaments. Having other duties at the tournament, or he had an active game going on – did not have the time to talk about the clock. If the clock has the bugs as you say, shocked it would be on the market with FIDE support.
It’s a perfectly fine clock otherwise. The only issue is when you have delay in secondary time controls. Even knowing this, I would still buy it again.
it is a bad thing to interfere in a game unless…
asked by both players, or there is a claim or a dispute.
Even if you are asked to be a witness to a potential time control claim (both players in time trouble and are stopping keeping score), you should not give any indication of the move number status until either one player makes a time forfeit claim, or both players agree that the time control has been satisfied.
Then, if asked, you may assist in resetting the clocks to the next time control.
There was at least one situation as a TD where I felt I had to point out a problem with the settings of the clock.
It was about 10:50 p.m. The playing hall was nearly empty except for one game that was in progress between a master and a strong A player. The round had started at 7:00 p.m. with 40/90 and SD/30. Therefore all games should have been concluded around 11:00 p.m.
To my horror, I looked at the clocks and saw that each player had about 35-38 minutes remaining! The clock had been incorrectly set to G/60 for the secondary time control.
The janitor was waiting in the hallway and was getting ready to close up the place.
I think it was a good thing that neither player had already used 30 minutes after the first time control, or else a time-forfeit claim could have been made.
As it was, I pointed out to the players that the secondary time control was SD/30. At this point, one player offered the other a draw which was promptly accepted and the TD breathed a sigh of relief. It was a complex position in which neither player wanted to finish at G/5.
99% of the time I agree (although in many situations I would say “by either player” instead of “by both players”).
There are, however, situations in which TD intervention at an opportune moment can head off serious trouble later.
Example: The time control is 40/90, then SD/30, and the players are using an analog clock. They set the clocks initially at 4:30 (so far, so good). They reach move 40 with several minutes to spare. At this point, since the second control is 30 minutes and there is no flag at 6:30, they should advance each clock 30 minutes so that the final flag occurs at 7:00. But the players fail to do this (and fail to ask the TD to do so).
Now, there is a danger that one of the players, confused by the clock setting (or lack thereof), will lose on time at 6:30, thinking he still has a half hour left. On top of that, a further dispute is possible because of the lack of a flag (“there’s a white space after the 6”, “no there isn’t”, etc etc).
How much better it would have been if, shortly after move 40, the TD had stepped in and added 30 minutes to each clock. All the trouble would have been avoided.
Timing would be crucial, though. The TD should stay out of it until it is obvious that both players know they have reached move 40. Probably, the best time for TD action would be when one of the clocks says 6:05 or so.
Scenario: Player A is in serious time trouble. He is blitzing to make it. Several moves have been made, and the TD is a witness. The player asks “Is it 40 moves yet?”
This question must NOT be answered, even if “yes”, unless BOTH players request it.
That is why I said “If asked by both blayers.”
Scenario: Your example where it is clear that the TC has been met. Then you should assist in resetting the clocks if either player requests it.
Should you do it without being asked?
My quick answer, by the rules, is “no”, but use your best judgement. You have your discretionary powers, and in order to diffuse a possible future situation, you may choose to do so. The timing you describe is probably about right (a few minutes into the next time control), and confirmed by the scoresheets that the TC number of moves have been played.
The best way to handle this is to announce at the start of the event that analog clocks are to be reset for secondary time controls. Rule 16W allows this. That way, if they are not reset, the players know that they are in violation of that announcement, and their clocks may be reset (by the director) for them.
In fact, in this situation the TD probably wishes he could just drop through the floor and disappear. There are times when it is better if a TD is NOT present during a time scramble.
Note that I said in many situations (not in all situations) I would say “by either player” instead of “by both players”.
Again we agree.
It seems we’re not far apart here, either.
The rest of my comments (actually, most of the previous ones, too) are for the benefit of the peanut gallery, as the two of us are apparently on the same page.
If move 40 is reached with several minutes remaining on each clock before 6:00, I would NOT intervene just yet (unless asked by one of the players) to reset the clocks. One of the players may not realize he has reached the control, and TD intervention could give undeserved help to that player.
So, better wait until after one of the clocks reads 6:00. In fact, wait a few minutes after that, just to be reasonably sure both players have noticed the 6:00 flag fall.
Yup.
Better yet, organizers should avoid secondary controls of other than 1 hour. There are still a FEW analog clocks around, after all.
Either player can ask for the OPPONENTS score sheet (and can ask the director for it if the player refuses, right?) at any time. How can getting the same information that is supposed to be on the opponents score sheet be wrong?
You are mistaken. It is absolutely forbidden for the TD (or anyone else) to tell a player how many moves have been made. (The only one who ever gave me an argument about this was Reshevsky, but then he argued about everything.) It is also incorrect to say that a player may ask to look at his opponent’s scoresheet “at any time.” 15D1 explicitly states that this request may be made only if “(b)oth players have at least five minutes remaining in the current time control.”
