Team awards are sometimes combined among multiple sections of a tournament by simply adding the scores of each team member. However, this isn’t fair as two sections are almost never fully comparable (rating average, deviation, etc.). What do you think about creating a formula that would adjust every teams score to take the different rating average, deviation, etc. into account?
Micah,
I think this is a call for the organizer, ie, the one paying the bills, not a call for
someone sitting on the sidelines. And number of trophies, esp, are a major part of the
expense for tournaments, esp, small local events. I use the idea of top 4 regardless
of section played at many of the small local scholastics that I run. A key reason for
schools to host these tournaments is to generate revenue necessary to fund their
chess program for the year. “Fair” is an event with ferris wheels and circus clowns.
A perception. Here is another perception–the most important aspect of scholastic
tournaments is affording the opportunity for kids to play chess.
Rob Jones
Which tournament combines the scores of players in different sections to determine team awards? Please let me know. It certainly is not in any of the National Scholastic events, or any of the State events I have directed. I do not think that is a good idea and the answer to your question is the same.
The Midwest Scholastic Class would have individual trophies by grade division and rating section (27 of them) with team trophies by grade division only (3 of them). It was a tournament that often exceeded 400 players and was one where every player, regardless of rating, could legitimately win every game or lose every game.
uschess.org/assets/msa_jooml … 0902289321
uschess.org/assets/msa_jooml … 0802096711
uschess.org/assets/msa_jooml … 0702108741
uschess.org/assets/msa_jooml … 0602044971
uschess.org/assets/msa_jooml … 0502057271
etc.
Doing the team awards required copying the WinTD tournament file under another name and merging the sections in that copy. I did hear that there was a Pennsylvania tournament that had a similar format. They were manually calculating the awards until I was doing one of the Pittsburgh national elementaries with one of their TDs as my section assistant, the topic came up during between-rounds chatting, and I suggested they see if they could do something similar in SwissSys (they could). If you try doing any weighting of scores based on section difficulty then the trophy calculation returns to being done manually and the basic idea of having every player on a team having a realistic chance to contribute equally to the score disappears.
Local organizers can create whatever formula they want for their events. That said, other organizers will not necessarily agree with that formula. But that would not work for National events. And, the USCF will not be in the business of creating any formulas for other organizers nor will it put something like that in the rule book…
Of course, I am talking about the main events and not the Parents & Friends side event of the National Championships.
So I guess I will change my answer to Mr. Smith’s question to: Sure, go for it at the events you organize!
CCA’s National Chess Congress has awarded team trophies this way for years. Players can be in any section and any number of players can make up a team. The top four scores from all the team players constitute the team score. There could be a team made up of one player from Premier, U2200, U2000, u1800, U1600, U1400 and U 1200 or 7 players from the U1200 section. You can certainly argue that 6-0 in the Premier means something different than 6-0 in the U1200!
Mike
Sure, but the CCA is a private organization and, as I mentioned before, an organizer can do whatever he or she wants. The USCF National Scholastic Chess Tournament Regulations specifically state that only team members in one section may compete for trophies in National Scholastic events…
The issue here is (the USCF) defining a formula for combining scores for different sections. I do not see that happening…
Franc, home run, of course I was referring to small local events only. At our major
local scholastics in which we expect audiences of 100+ we do have team trophies
by sections.
Rob Jones
Yes, in the Pittsburgh area, one scholastic organizer not only has individual awards but also gives team trophies based on the scores of team players across several sections. Schools that bring more players have a better chance of scoring than teams with only one or two entrants. Also, the Pennsylvania State Chess Federation gives out team awards in several of its many championships. These tournaments usually have 3 sections, an Open, Reserve, and Scholastic section. Team trophies are awarded to the top schools and top chess clubs. Participating clubs must pick up to 7 players from the sections to form a team. The top four scores are added to determine the team prize. The scores are not weighted. This means that the game points scored by a 200 rated player can be equal to a 2200+. Team members root for each other and go over games. Occasionally, the last game going in a scholastic section has a crowd watching it because that game determines a team prize. This format has boosted tournament attendance. Several universities participate along with the local USCF affiliates and schools. It’s fun.
Weighting the scores is complicated and takes time. The kids love that their points are equally important and not demeaned just because they are in a scholastic section. This is just for trophies, not for global domination.
Well, rats. That just messes up my whole plan for tonight.
Especially with Elementary School sections – K3 and K5 (or K6) – I can understand it, as many schools will not be able to field four players in either section.
My guiding principle is motivating the kids. I’ve seen teams win a trophy because their fourth player managed to draw his last game and finish +0-3=1. The pride on that kid’s face, knowing that without his draw on the bottom table his team would have gone home empty-handed, is absolutely priceless.
If it is common that schools don’t have teams unless they cross sections, then by all means, cross sections if you want to.
First of all, I don’t understand how most of your post is relevant to my post (and your first sentence doesn’t make sense at all). Second, my idea of creating a formula would make it more fair for your tournaments that combine team trophies among all the sections.
Many tournaments in Washington do. You were clearly wrong in implying that few tournaments combine team awards among multiple sections but that doesn’t mean you should have lashed out in your responses like you did. I agree it is better to not combine team awards among multiple sections if you don’t use a weighted formula but the problem is that teams can be split up and thus not win a team trophy in any section. Also, some events aren’t big enough to have team awards per section.
True, but it’s not fair to have players in an Under section, for example, to have there scores treated the same. They most likely wouldn’t contribute equally if it was one section.
Why would it not work for National events? It would prevent teams from being split up by having players in different sections. Also, I didn’t know you were the ultimate authority for deciding what the USCF is going to create and put in the rulebook.
Why not? It’s just like a handicap in bowling or golf.
Just run YOUR tournaments the way YOU want to run them. As long as they abide by USCF rules, no problem. If you want to run them not in accordance with USCF rules, then don’t have them rated.
No problem.
In your discussions in this and another thread, you have asked for input about procedures for National events. And, as I have stated, none of the National Scholastic events use your idea.
It would not work for several reasons: The tournaments are too big, we already have lots of teams in each of the National Championships, the sections are already too big, the system will be extremely hard to manage and, most importantly, this, in my opinion, would not be a welcome change to the majority of the participants, parents, and coaches. There will be too many who would feel cheated by other teams with a different team composition.
I am not discounting your (lack of) experience but, at this point, I think that I have a little bit better idea of how this works. Sure, I could be wrong and, sure, I am not the ultimate authority for deciding what the USCF is going to do. This is just my opinion based on my experience in dealing with thousands and thousands of players, coaches, parents, and key members of the USCF while performing duties as Chief TD of many National Scholastic events, including two National Youth Actions, three U.S. Junior Opens, three National Elementary, two National Junior High, one National High School, two National Grades, and two SuperNationals (including the upcoming one). In addition to being the Chief TD for those, I have also been the Floor Chief for many others, and the Chief TD for many State Scholastic Championships, some as big as National events.
Of course, you are welcome to propose those changes at the Delegates meeting, and I hope you do. God willing, I will be there listening to what you have to say…
Are any of these tournaments in Washington USCF rated? If not, they don’t fall under USCF jurisdiction at all, and in any case it is unfair to expect Mr. Guadalupe to know what is going on in non-USCF events.
Alex Relyea
Well, since it’s your idea, why don’t you put some Nationals X-tables into a spreadsheet and show how this would work in practice?
True, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea.
I think it would be easier to manage (at least if SwissSys makes it easier to combine team standings among multiple section. Not sure about WinTD) as you would only have to worry about one set of team trophies and standings.
If these scholastic tournaments in Washington were USCF rated, Mr. Guadalupe he still wouldn’t have known that many combine team trophies among multiple sections. He seemed to be under the impression that very few tournaments combine team trophies over multiple sections which is not true. He couldn’t handle he was wrong and lashed out in his responses.
…which, since they’re not, are immaterial to Mr. Guadalupe’s observations…
For the sake of accuracy, here’s what he actually said.
Let’s break this down, sentence by sentence.
First sentence: asked a question.
Second sentence: asked for an answer to the question in the first sentence.
Third sentence: stated that the practice in question has not been used in any national scholastics, or in his state championship directing experience.
Fourth sentence: gave his opinion about the practice in question, which also served as an answer to your original question in this thread.
THIS constitutes “lashing out”? Seriously? I mean, really?
Oh, by the way, what did he say that was, you know, actually wrong?
BTW, I know of some actual USCF rated events that combine scores across sections. Pennsylvania has a number of them every year. They’re smaller events, and not, say, the state open championship or the state scholastic championship. They do help to attract attendance, and since the only thing at stake is a trophy, who cares, as long as it brings people out to play?
Wrong? After my statement, you mentioned the Washington State events. As it has been pointed out, those are not rated events. When discussing issues here, I do not talk about non-rated events. Yes, as I mentioned and others have as well, a few organizers do have team awards spanning multiple sections as that is okay for them; however, once again, that is not done for National events and I am pretty sure about that since I direct many of them!
In my opinion, the events which offer team awards spanning multiple sections are a small percentage, compared to all the scholastic events held throughout the Nation. Of course, with your vast experience and knowledge, you may know better… 
We are simply talking about tournaments combining team trophies among multiple sections. Why does it matter if they are USCF rated or not? You are using this as an excuse. You still wouldn’t have known about that the Washington events combined team trophies among multiple sections if they were USCF rated and I’m sure some have been USCF rated!
Yes, but in your first post, you wrote “Which tournament combines the scores of players in different sections to determine team awards? Please let me know.” which implies you thought virtually no tournaments combine team trophies among multiple sections which is obviously wrong.