Yes I would. If the child can’t follow the rules after being told three times, then he’s no different than any other rated player.
Doug, if your point is to fret over whether to apply the rules unequally to experienced and inexperienced players, may I make a simple suggestion to alleviate the problem:
Make up a rule sheet, explaining the touch-move rule (if you touch a piece, you must move it), the determined-move rule (no take-backs after the hand has released the piece), the completed-move rule (flag must still be up after the clock is pressed), etc.
Post this rule sheet in several places at every tournament.
In addition, have a pile of these rule sheets available at registration, for the players to take and read. When an inexperienced player registers, physically hand him a copy and ask him to read it before the tournament begins.
THEN enforce the rules uniformly, regardless of age or experience.
Bill Smythe
Well, I would definitely forfeit the child, while forfeiting and expelling the master. Why? Because the master didn’t become a master without knowing the rules and playing in a lot of tournaments, where presumably he was called on his infraction mahy times. So he would be even more accountable.
The new player, regardless of age, once told of his infraction three times, should then be forfeited and expelled, since he not only refused to learn from his mistake, but also disregarded the warning from the tournament director and/or opponent.
I recently had some students play in a tournament where a hgih school kid was violating this rule. Once I verified that it had been happening not only to my students but to others as well, and no one had the courage to speak up, I went to the TD and told him, and he talked to the player. It didn’t happen again. This is the way it should be.
The suggestion about making up a flyer listing basic rules is a good one, and I’ve seen it done before just because of these things happening. A person warned who ignores the warnings should suffer the consequences.
You apparently feel more sympathy for the child who doesn’t know the rules rather than their opponent who loses concentration while trying to make sure the child doesn’t break any others.
By the way, in your hypothetical situation of the 20-player tournament, you left out five scholastic players, mentioning only the family of five. I guess the other five players knew the rules and didn’t cause you any trouble, huh?
And as for the kids who stuffed the chess sets down the toilets, I’d send the bill for repairs to the parents, without hestiation.
Radishes
If a Master makes a touch move or illegal move three times, needing the director to correct the clocks would forfeit and expel the Master. If a child makes a touch move or illegal move three times, would you forfeit and expel the child. Why do you find that being fair?
In all the years as a director or as a player, have ever witness the adult become so upset with a child over touch moves or illegal moves. Some will talk about the shame they would feel losing to a child, but not the anger they have over touch move or illegal moves. Do touch moves and illegal moves happen with children: it happens all the time with new children. If a child makes a touch move or illegal move, and the claimant being the adult wants the illegal or touch moves corrected on the board – would do so if they both have agreement. Handing over to the adult an extra two minutes on the clock, will not going to change the outcome of the game. Having an adult being paired, a K-3 child in the range of 100 - 500, will not cause the adult to win the game with an extra two minutes. Having the child lose the game by forfeit on the 3rd illegal move or touch move is very cold.
Would find it very shocking, if an adult would demand an extra two minutes on the clock, for every illegal move the child makes. Most illegal moves made by a child, are leaving their king in check or moving their king into check. Can show you these same children leaving their queen, rooks, bishops and knights hanging. What kind of adult would demand an extra two minutes on the clock with these children? What kind of adult would demand winning the game by forfeit? What type of man do we have when he can claim he won his game against a child by forfeit?
It’s a simple point you’re not getting…
It’s a rule about touch move / touch take. If kids want to play in tournaments, they must follow the rules. Period.
I think it’s a reasonable assumption you don’t have kids. If a child skipped school, would you not ever punish him?
You don’t pay money to play in a tournament to teach a child how to play tournament chess. Why would I come play in your tournaments when you allow children to not follow the rules? You keep giving them more chances, your whole scenerio is laughable and no one is agreeing with you.
Did you ever think you might be wrong on this one?
I’d like to see the USCF rule that says I have to give kids special rules when playing at my tournaments…
1C2. Directors discretion. In areas in which the director has discretion, it is appropriate to be strictest with rules enforcement and penalties in events that are stronger or offer large prizes. Being harshly penalized over a trivial rules violation can be sufficiently upsetting to deter a beginner from future chess participation.
1C2a. Standard penalty. Except where specifically noted in the rules, the standard penalty assessed by the director is to add two unused minutes to the remaining time of the opponent of the player not following the rules of chess.
1C2b. Non-standard penalties. Except where specifically noted in the rules, the director may assess penalties either more or less severe than the standard penalty (1C2a). It is often more appropriate for a director to issue a warning(s) before applying 1C2a in cases involving young or inexperience players. A director may assess a more severe penalty in cases involving players who repeatedly do not follow the rules of chess.
When it comes to touch moves and illegal moves, will use 1C2, 1C2a, 1C2b. Will build how the rules shall be taken care of between young age of K-3 and adults. They are part of the Official Rules of Chess and the standard and non-standard penalties will be spelled out. I’m not going to change the demands of the claimant on enforcement of the touch rules, as the claimant has that right with any age group. It’s just the penalties of the two extra minutes that bother me with a K-3 child and a master.
Have been thinking of a number of house rules during the tournament. Plan to have them posted for Western Michigan Open IV. Have been thinking of having all the “Michigan Chess Associations” rules used. There are some rules in conflict with the new edition of the Official Rules of Chess, most of that is with the blitz rules. Since the computer pairing program with online reporting are in two different rooms. It has changed how I’m in two rooms making me a floor and backroom TD. All my other tournament sites had my backroom duties done on the tournament floor.
With the touch move or illegal move, during all of 2004 had 3 times taken up the problem. With the granting of the two extra minutes, both parties were in agreement to the claim before making a judgment. The facts of two of the claims, was granted during their time trouble. The other one, both parties did not know what they needed to do, and the claimant was shock to gain two extra minutes. It could be when someone makes a claim of touch move or illegal move and demands the 2 extra minutes, the claimant is in time trouble. It could be the reason why adults never make a claim against a child, as what adult in a G/60 event would be in time trouble with a child in the K-3 age group.
Thunderchicken:
If you come to my tournament being a G/60, and you are paired with a child in the K-3 age group, the child makes a illegal move on the board. You should tell the player of the illegal move, like the illegal move is leaving the king in check or putting the king into check. How hard is that for you to do Thunderchicken, it happens all the time with children. It even happens with adults, during skittles games and we all move on. If you run up to me showing the illegal board, will correct the board for you. How hard is it for you and the child to correct the board?
The reason you ran up to me to correct the board, is to get that two extra minutes on the clock. It should not take you Thunderchicken the whole 60 minutes to win the game. Thunderchicken, you must have a very poor USCF rating if you cannot put away a child in that age group. If you need 62 minutes then the 60 minutes on the clock to win a game, then you have to be one of the worst chess players around. If you need that extra two minutes because you are going to run into time trouble, with a K-3 age group child, then you should not be playing chess with the big boys and girls. If you were paired with a K-3 child in the last and final round (I have 4 rounds), it would show your score in the tournament as very poor.
I will fix the illegal move on the board, begging for the two extra minutes you are not going to get. I will give the child a warning, and that is all. With 60 moves in the game, and you end up in time trouble, with a child in kindergarten – I would be laughing my guts out. If I did give you extra minutes on the clock, then you get into time trouble, I do not think I could be holding my laughter. If the child makes three illegal moves or touch moves, and I gave you an extra 6 minutes on the clock and you lose on time. I would be laughing so hard it would kill me.
Trust me, based on what you write on here, I’ll stay far away from your tournaments. If you like to give kids special consideration just based on age, be my guest. You’re not teaching them anything.
You still haven’t proved your point by any rules. You just post really useless information on here that has nothing to do with anything.
Yea! I’m going to drive up there and play there just so you can watch me lose. What a great idea there Doug! That’ll show me! Then you can come back on here and post how bad I lost and keep rambling on and on about it. Can we be friends?
Thunderchicken,
I think it's hopeless. Doug is going to allow young players to get away with making illegal moves and no matter how much anyone complains about it he's going to allow it.
How sad that none of the young players who go to his tournaments will learn the proper rules of tournament play. And it means the rest of us have to listen to kids whine, "But the last tournament I played in they didn't have that rule!"
Tragically Doug is willing to undermine a fine generation of chess players, while making the rest of us look like "meanies".
Radishes
This reminds me of a tournament that I directed in Kansas. For some reason, all the Kansas kids had been taught that touch-move means that any touching means that you have to move the piece. I had about ten claims where this happened, and both players agreed that it had happened, so I said that there was no such claim. One kid told me that he had inadvertantly brushed against his queen and immediately resigned because he had no good moves with her.
Like (almost) everybody else, I can see no benefit in teaching players, even very young players, that they don’t have to play by the rules.
I’m frightened to think that there are directors out there who think that they can flaunt the rules of chess with impunity. If I were playing in a tournament where the director would do no more than warn my opponent despite repeated rules violations, and then began to laugh when I lost I would have serious questions about the director’s objectivity and would make a complaint to the USCF, but that’s just me.
Alex Relyea
If the section is K-3, its’ called a Primary. If the two children are in this section, it is standard practice not to have a chess clock at the board during the whole game. The USCF will rate a K-3 section without having a chess clock on the board. If the child makes a touch move or an illegal move, how can a director add two extra minutes for the claimant? If the game is between two Masters (adults), and one makes an illegal move or a touch move, and one wants to be the claimant. If the claimant and the other player agree to the charge, I can pick up the clock and add two extra minutes.
If someone is going to be a director or have official standings at the Supernational III, will the primary players be forced to have a chess clock. Its’ very clear all the sections at the Supernational III, shall be ratable. Very sure an agent of the United States Chess Federation will be at the Supernational III every single day. If there is one section in the primaries, when a clock is not needed for the round, how can any clock rules be enforced. With the primary section or K-3, if the claimant makes a claim of the other player having a touch move or illegal move. If both players agree of the touch move or the illegal move, there is no clock for the director to give the claimant two extra minutes. The only way to take care of the problem is give a warning to the player.
If the ratable games are between two adults, if the claimant makes a claim and the other player is in agreement. Will fix the board if its’ not already done, and give the claimant two extra minutes on the clock. For a standard primary section, there is no clock. For the adults and the primary players, can correct the board, but cannot correct the clock. For the primary, since there is no clock and its’ ratable, they (USCF) would feel a warning is only needed to teach the children.
If an adult is paired up with a primary player, it could be the first time the child has ever had to play with a clock. If the child makes a touch move or illegal move, what good will it be for the adult to get two extra minutes on the clock. If the child is paired up with someone in the same age group, they would not need a clock. How can it be fair to the child, if making an illegal move and the adult gets two extra minutes. For the child, would feel its’ unfair to use a clock because the opponent is an adult. Now you are telling the child because of an illegal move, its’ fair for the adult to get two extra minutes. If the child makes 3 illegal moves, telling the child its’ fair to forfeit and expelled from the event. If the child was in a primary event, if the child made 3 illegal moves would have gotten warnings.
If on the other hand, if two adults are paired with each other. If the claimant can prove the opponent made 3 illegal moves or touch moves, I would forfeit and expel the player from the event. The reason for the adults, as touch move or illegal move claims are very rare with adults, and only happen on average no more than once.
Alex Relyea:
If the primary sections, that have been ratable in the past without a chess clock. If the claimant makes a claim, how can I give the claimant two extra minutes on the clock. I can fix the board between the two primary players, since there is no clock I cannot give two extra minutes on the clock. Having a clock in the primary sections are not universe, how can every director enforce the touch move or illegal move rule, without a clock. There are ratable games going on in the primary section without a chess clock, they do not have a chess clock, so how can I add two extra minutes to teach the very young. The only thing I can do if fix the board and give a warning, for a standard primary section event.
Yes, the continued nonsense and poor grammar continues.
You continue to go off topic and I think I’m done trying to figure out what your points are because you go on and on about things not related.
Good luck Doug, I wont respond to you anymore until you actually make sense and learn to write at a 2nd grade level.
What does the child learn if you get two extra minutes on the clock?
Have made it clear, if you want to make a claim against a child I will fix the board. If the child makes an illegal move on the board, will tell the child he cannot leave his King in check. If the child makes a move and place his King in check, I will tell the child of the illegal move. What does the child learn if you get two extra minutes on the clock?
What if the child was always in the primary sections, most primary sections do not even have a chess clock. If the child is in the first grade, you should win the game before move 30.
If you are in a G/60 with a 1st grader, how many minutes will you need to win?
How many minute will it take you to win against a child in the 1st grade? If you are white, and the opening is 1. e4 h5 2. d4 Rh6 3. Bh6 gh6 4. Nf3 a5 5. Nc3 Ra6 6. Ba6 ba6, how many minutes will you need to win? Would you need all 60 minutes on the clock to win this game? If the child makes two illegal moves, that would give you 64 minutes on the clock. You should win this game with less then 10 minutes on the clock.
If the child makes a illegal move, and you want the director to correct the board there is no problem. You could tell the child of the illegal move and take care of the problem. Asking the director to correct the board, and both you and the child are in agreement will correct the illegal move. In both ways, the board has been corrected. You and the child could have corrected the board, or asking the director would correct the board. What is the big problem, the illegal move is taken care of. I see its’ the two extra minutes you want.
If you are going to win the game with only 10 or at most 15 minutes used on the clock. Without the two extra minutes, you should still have 45 minutes left on the clock after checkmate. What does the child learn if you get an extra two minutes on the clock?
Wow Doug. I havent visited these forums in 2 months and look at the trouble you’ve gotten yourself into. It’s like a big fight where its just you against 10 other guys.
Since you guys are all adult players or TD’s let me provide some insight from a different perspective.
I just played in the NJ Scholastic Tournament for grades K-12 last weekend. That’s right let me make this loud and clear K-12. So that means I played kids from all different ages. And let me tell you age is no excuse. I played against third graders who were excellent with chess etiquette and rules (this is regardless of their rating), while on the other hand, there was a ninth grader who seemed not to understand this touch move rule concept. This kid, the ninth grader, was an okay player (maybe 1000 level which is much higher than most K-3 that Doug is talking about) but would touch just about every single piece before each move. His opponents became very VERY MAD. And you know what’s ironic? One of his opponents was much younger than him and tried to correct him. Yet he continued his random touching. He ended up placing insignificantly (about 75/120) so it really did not matter, but just because this kid didn’t follow the rule it caused a big headache for many and wasted time. I honestly did not think he belonged at a state championship tournament.
So there Doug, I, a scholastic player who plays in both scholastic and adult events believe that the rules should not change if the tournament is a USCF rated event following USCF rules regardless of age.
Well, Doug looks like you lack experience in this area. At the state scholastics I watched a game played by two 8 year old that lasted 75 minutes for each side and the game was very high level.
I’ve come to realize you aren’t at all concerned with the illegality of breaking the rules, but rather with resetting the clock.
The two minutes may mean nothing to the child. But are you going to have the child learn there are NO consequences to breaking the rules? Is that what you are advocating? Because I would play this kid without any clock, and after repeated warnings to him about moving a piece he has touched, then I would call the TD (that’s you) and ask you to tell the kid what the rule is, because he apparently doesn’t believe me.
Now, there you are, without us having a clock, are you going to ignore it or warn the kid? You can’t penalize him on time, so what are you going to do? You have to warn him. If he keeps on doing it and I report it to you, and you don’t do anything, such as rule a forfiet, then you have treated ME unfairly and I will complain loudly to the USCF and your association about your unfair practices against me.
See? No clock in this case, so you have to do something else or else be ignored because you are unwilling to enforce the rules. And then you may be charged with unethical conduct for unfair treatment of players.
Or are you more concerned with the kid staying in the game than his opponent of any age being treated fairly?
There you go again, worrying more about the clock than about enforcing the touch-move rule. Can you address this problem without mentioning the clock? No, because you want to avoid having to be the TD and enforcing a penalty against a player who needs to learn the rules.
Once again, Doug, the child learns not only the rules of chess, but also that illegal actions produce consequences that he may not like. I think you agree that one of the many benefits of chess to scholastic players is that it teaches them there are consequences in life, as well as chess, if they make the wrong choices or don’t follow directions.
I have some students going to SuperNationals, and I’m going to tell them that if they play anyone from Michigan, to ask if they understand the touch-move rule. Hard to tell how many kids you’ve given a pass to on this rule and have no business being at that tournament.
Radishes
Radishes:
What is this high level of violent rage you have against children? If the child makes a few illegal moves you want the child forfeited to win the game? If I’m paired with a child, just play the game and move on: life is two short to be upset. If the child makes a number of illegal moves, you want more then a warning against the child, you want more then the two extra minutes on the clock – you want the child forfeited and expelled from the tournament. What would the child learn if the child is forfeited and expelled from the tournament? It does make me wonder what you do to you’re students?
It does make me wonder what you would do to a child if it acted up worse then making illegal moves on the board. With the violent rage you have against a child making illegal moves, would hate to see the violent rage you would have with children growing up.
TDs need to apply the rules consistently. Using one standard for adults and another for youth at the same event is inconsistent. That opens up the “appeals” can of worms. If a TD wants to apply the rules differently to different groups of players then the TD needs to announce/post this variation before the event begins (I suspect also in pre-tournament publicity). That-a-way any player that wants to withdraw/not play can do so.
Tim Just
So, out of curiosity, how did the TD handle the 9th grader? It seems very relevant to the discussion.
Alex Relyea