Doug needs to read the last sentence of rule 1C2b:
“Non-standard penalties. … The director may assess penalties either more or less severe than the standard penalty [add 2 minutes to opponent’s clock]. … A director may assess a more severe penalty in cases involving players who repeatedly do not follow the rules of chess.”
Bill Smythe
Please note that Doug has never been involved in Michigan scholastic chess. Touch-move is strictly enforced at all Scholastic events sponsored by the Michigan Chess Association.
Fine if you want the rules to be innate then it will be innate for everyone. This will be the rules for touch move or illegal moves at my events.
If the claimant makes a claim will give the claimant two extra minutes on the clock. Will not forfeit anyone making any number of touch move or ilegal moves during the game. Do not see how forfeiting a child helps a child learn.
Do not see how a claimant being an adult with a child in primary would want two extra minutes for each claim. Children in primary do not even use chess clocks as a standard model. If the child makes 30 illegal moves during the game, do not understand why the adult wants an extra hour on the clock? You want the two extra minutes, you got. If two masters are making 30 illegal moves during the game, the claimants will get 60 extra minutes on the clock. The next round could be a hour late, but its’ equal to everyone.
Thanks, Jeff, for noting that.
In that case, I won’t worry about who my students play against.
Just for the record, have you had any problems with students when you have enforced the rules? Doug seems to think it would crush a young player to do so.
Radishes
Well, Doug, I think you misread me and my so-called “violent rage.”
Sorry, but if I have any animosity against anyone, it’s against a person in a place of responsibility, such as yourself in a TD capacity, allowing the breaking of rules in a tournament. It makes me wonder if you would let any child do whatever they want besides making illegal moves on the board. It is certainly a poor way to teach responsibility to young people, besides telling them they don’t have to follow any rules. Just like you felt the parents shouldn’t have any responsibility for the toilet their kids trashed at that tournament, I guess you’re willing to let anyone get away with anything as long as it doesn’t upset them.
My son is 15, a chess player, and he’s read some of your posts, and he thinks the same way I do. He would feel very upset if his younger opponent was allowed to get away with breaking the rules. Once again, you’re thinking only of the young kid and not of his opponent.
I’m just glad Jeff mentioned you don’t have a role in scholastic chess. It means the kids up there are in better hands than yours. It makes me wonder how your kids, if you had any, would have turned out.
I’m going to be like thunderchicken. You’ll never change your mind, and you’ll never understand why the way you think is wrong, so I’m going to bow out of this discussion.
Radishes
Doug seems to be under the opinion that a TD is only called over for a touch move so that two minutes can be added to the clock. I’ve never added two minutes, but have been called over numerous times over the past couple of decades to either explain the rule or, more often, to decide whether or not a touch move occurred.
Generally I am called over prior to the clock being hit so, since the move has not officially been completed (which happens when the clock is hit), there is no reason to even consider adding two minutes. (Incidentally, I rule that if an illegal move is corrected by the player prior to hitting the clock then there is also no time adjustment to be made as, since it was fixed while it was still the player’s move, the official move was not illegal).
Whether or not to add two minutes if the clock had been hit prior to a TD being called over is something I would like to consider at length and discuss with multiple other NTDs before making a final decision, and in the mean-time I would be inclined not to do so.
I did check with another NTD who’s been an NTD significantly longer than I have. He will also be at Supernationals and he has also never added two minutes for a violation. Both of us have enforced that, if there is sufficient evidence to substantiate that a deliberate touch occured, that the touched piece be moved regardless of the age or skill level of the player.
Touch move is significantly different from illegal moves in that the position on the board gives no clue as to what happened and determining what happened requires either an eye witness or honest testimony of the players. If you start imposing drastic penalties then receiving that honest testimony will become rare to non-existent and more violations will be uncorrected. Forfeiture and ejection seem to be detrimental overkill for three touch move violations.
In the NJ situation mentioned above, totally uninformed hypothetical speculation is that the player may have received warnings about the on-going behavior and finally had penalties imposed because of the behavior that continued after the warnings. How it was actually handled is the domain of the director. Many years back I had a similar situation with a younger player and, after discussing it with the coach, the coach removed the player as not yet being ready for tournament play.
If a player lies about whether or not the player touched the piece, and there is overwhelming evidence (such as being witnessed by a TD) that the player lied, then the player could be ejected and forfeited. However, that ejection and forfeiture would not be because of the touch move violation, but rather because of the ethics violation due to the lies. That ejection for ethics would not require a prior warning and could happen on the very first time a TD was called for touch move for the player.
I’m not the owner or the manager of Chessexpress. I was not the director of the event, or was at the scholastic event when it happened.
If you are paired up with a kindergarder, the child touch the King and placed it into check. I will go over to the board and inform the child of the illegal move and tell the child to make a legal move. Then I will give you two extra minutes on your clock.
If you are paired up with a master, the master touch the King and placed it into check. I will go over to the board and inform the child of the illegal move and tell the child to make a legal move. Then I will give you two extra minutes on your clock.
I’m will give you the two extra minutes on your clock, with a master and the child. As its’ very clear you feel that a warning for the child is cheating. What more do you want? I will fix the board for you all along, if you make a claim on touch move or illegal move I will correct the board each and every time. I’m not going to perform corporal punishment to make you happy. I will give you the two extra minutes because you think its cheating.
If the claimant makes a illegal move, will come over and correct the board for you. If the child makes an illegal move and place the King in check, will come over and correct the board with the King in the square before the move. Then tell the child to make a legal move with the King. I wanted to give the primary child a warning, but you want that two extra minutes and you want more. I’m going to give you the two extra minutes then a warning, what more do you want from the child?
This is my email:
I will call you on the phone and talk, if you have been one of the members of this subject. We both want the best for children, we want the rules to be enforced, we have not been talking to each other, only picking small unimportant minor issues.
That’s a good question Alex. First of all, it seemed that this kid (let’s call him Charlie) would begin to nervously touch all the pieces only when he was losing. His first opponent was nice enough to let it go several times since Charlie was inevitably lost anyways. Another of his opponents was about to go complain to the TD but Charlie’s teamates got to him first and told Charlie not to touch anymore pieces. I heard from someone this also happened in Charlie’s last game but I did not see it so I won’t talk about something I am not sure of. So even though Charlie broke this rule multiple times (always when he was losing), the TD actually only found out once. Since this apparently was Charlie’s first tournament, the TD gave him a warning and changed the time on the clock (how many minutes I am not sure).
Overall I highly disagree with Doug’s opinion on this because little kids, no matter how young will have to learn the rules someday, and it’s better to learn early than to build up a bad habit of touching pieces and trying to break the habit later.
It has never been an issue at our events. Our Elementary team tournament in February had a K-3 section with than 60 4-player teams. I don’t remember touch move being an issue the entire day.
Kids are like sponges. In general, they understand rules like touch-move very quickly, sometimes faster than how to move the pieces. I think a bigger issue at that age is not understanding touch-move versus piece adjustment.