US Chess rulebook: second TD Tip after rule 5C

[Mulfish]

@dennisk

@wilecoyote

If anyone has an actual example of a Swiss that has different time controls for rounds (and does not have multiple schedules), I would be interested in knowing.

In Wisconsin tournaments, we do this regularly. Back in the days when adjournments were common, our standard time control was long enough that some games might not finish soon enough to start the next round on time. No problem – we would just adjourn those games. But since you can’t adjourn games in round 4, we often had a shorter time control for that round. These days, we rarely do adjournments anymore, but that presents a different problem – now the time control has to be short enough not to run into the next round. But that is more of a problem on Saturday (3 rounds) than on Sunday (2 rounds), so we often have a shorter time control on Saturday (or at least for the first two rounds on Saturday) than on Sunday.

I don’t particularly like changing time controls within a tournament (and especially not between rounds 2 and 3 on Saturday), so I would prefer just using the shorter TC (the Saturday one) throughout the tournament. But it’s not that big of a deal, so I have never complained about it, and as a TD, I have never received any complaints about it.

The time control is generally set by the organizer rather than the TD, but when I am consulted, I express my preference for a single time control throughout, or at least for making the change after Saturday’s rounds are completed rather than between rounds 2 and 3. But I don’t get the sense that most players care very much about this.

Georgia has an event called Time Control Open where they start at G30 and add 15 minutes per round, ending at G45.

[Smythe_Dakota]

@wilecoyote

While the rule does not state explicitly, I am interpreting it as all rounds in one section. Sections are independent entities for rating purposes (and essentially for all other purposes).

Agreed.

If anyone has an actual example of a Swiss that has different time controls for rounds (and does not have multiple schedules), I would be interested in knowing.

I see that several organizers have already responded with their examples. Back when I was running tournaments at the Lunt Avenue club in Chicago, on at least one occasion I ran a 2-day, 5-round Plus Score at G/120 d/5 for the three Saturday rounds, and 40/120 SD/60 d/5 for the two Sunday rounds. Needless to say, time controls as slow as that have by now become pretty much a thing of the past.

(By the way, I fully agree that a round robin should have the same time control for all rounds.)

OK, that was my main point to begin with.

Bill Smythe

[Micah_Smith]

@Smythe Dakota

I see that several organizers have already responded with their examples. Back when I was running tournaments at the Lunt Avenue club in Chicago, on at least one occasion I ran a 2-day, 5-round Plus Score at G/120 d/5 for the three Saturday rounds, and 40/120 SD/60 d/5 for the two Sunday rounds. Needless to say, time controls as slow as that have by now become pretty much a thing of the past.

The Portland Chess Club used to run most of it’s 2-day tournaments in a very similar format. Most had three rounds of 40/90,SD/30;d5 on Saturday and two rounds of 40/120,SD/60;d5 on Sunday. Many players took a bye for round 3 since the format is very grueling. I helped change the format so that most of our two-day tournaments that have multiple sections now have two rounds on Saturday and two rounds on Sunday with all the rounds at G/90;inc30 and our two-day tournaments that have one section now have three rounds on Saturday and two rounds on Sunday with round 1 at G/60;d10 and rounds 2-5 at G/120;d10. I think players like that the weekends aren’t as grueling anymore. I also think they like the single time controls and the inc30 and d10.

[nolan]

I’m sure there have been many Swiss events with time controls that vary by round, I guess on the theory that earlier rounds are likely to be less competitive matches, but I still haven’t seen evidence of that happening in RR events.

[nolan]

Aside from a few quads, I can only find 3 events since 2013 that look like they might have been RR events where the time control wasn’t the same for each round, and those might have been events planned as a swiss but with low enough turnout that they wound up being RR events.

In one of them, only the first round had a longer time control than the others, so that might have been due to other circumstances.

Doesn’t seem like that’s a problem worth trying to fix at this time.

[jwiewel]

@nolan

Aside from a few quads, I can only find 3 events since 2013 that look like they might have been RR events where the time control wasn’t the same for each round, and those might have been events planned as a swiss but with low enough turnout that they wound up being RR events.

In one of them, only the first round had a longer time control than the others, so that might have been due to other circumstances.

Doesn’t seem like that’s a problem worth trying to fix at this time.

It may be higher than that because a lot of TDs wouldn’t even have noticed that the time control can be adjusted per round when submitting an event.

[Micah_Smith]

TD TIP:

Note 1: When submitting a rating report to US Chess, the time control for each section, including the increment or delay, must be listed. The time control listed determines what rating system(s) each section will be rated under. If a section has different dual/regular time controls for different rounds/schedules, all of the different time controls can be submitted in the rating report but the slowest time control is all that is required. When the faster time control(s) fall in the dual rated category and the slower time control(s) fall in the regular-only rated category, all the games will only be regular rated, regardless of if the time control for each round/schedule is submitted. Example: 3-day schedule is G/90 inc/30. The 2-day schedule plays rounds 1 and 2 at G/45 d/5 and then merges with the 3-day schedule for round 3. Both time controls can be reported but all that must be reported is G/90 inc/30, and all the games will only be regular rated regardless.

Note 2: If any games in a section use a time control that is quick-ratable only, then all games in that section must use time controls that are quick-ratable only. Quick events are usually fun, one-day events that don’t last all day and often have a fair number of rounds. Sudden-death rules are used in quick events except scorekeeping is not required.

Note 3: For Blitz events, it is advisable to state Blitz in the title or in the time control of the event for clarity. For more information on Blitz events, see the Blitz rules, Chapter 11.

Note 4: G/60 d/5 is dual rated. If you wish for the games not to be quick rated, make the “total playing time” at least 66 minutes (some possible time controls are G/61 d/5 and G/60 d/6). G/25 d/5 is also dual rated. If you do not want these games to be regular rated, make the total playing time at most 29 minutes (some possible time controls are G/26 d/3, G/25 d/4, and G/24 d/5).

Tim Just told me he is not inclined to make any changes to the second TD Tip after rule 5C. I find this quite befuddling as I think the second TD Tip after rule 5C is very poorly written and think my proposed rewrite, given above, is vastly superior. Who agrees with me?

[wzim]

Superior or not no one really appreciates this level of micromanagement. Suggestions are one thing. But insisting that one’s way is the only proper way isn’t going to get anywhere.

[Micah_Smith]

@wzim

Superior or not no one really appreciates this level of micromanagement. Suggestions are one thing. But insisting that one’s way is the only proper way isn’t going to get anywhere.

I never said my way is the only proper way. I asked if others think my proposed rewrite is superior. Also, my current proposed rewrite of the TD Tip incorporates suggestions made by others in this thread. I welcome more suggestions for improving the TD Tip. I know it would be better to have some of the things in the TD Tip in the actual rule itself but having it in the TD Tip is better than nothing.

Also, I wouldn’t call it micromanagement when the second TD Tip is as poorly written as it currently is.

[BobMessenger]

Sorry to do this so long after the topic was created, but for consistency I’ve moved this topic from US Chess Issues to Running Chess Tournaments.

[dennisk]

@Micah Smith

TD TIP:

Note 1: When submitting a rating report to US Chess, the time control for each section, including the increment or delay, must be listed. The time control listed determines what rating system(s) each section will be rated under. If a section has different dual/regular time controls for different rounds/schedules, all of the different time controls can be submitted in the rating report but the slowest time control is all that is required. When the faster time control(s) fall in the dual rated category and the slower time control(s) fall in the regular-only rated category, all the games will only be regular rated, regardless of if the time control for each round/schedule is submitted. Example: 3-day schedule is G/90 inc/30. The 2-day schedule plays rounds 1 and 2 at G/45 d/5 and then merges with the 3-day schedule for round 3. Both time controls can be reported but all that must be reported is G/90 inc/30, and all the games will only be regular rated regardless.

Note 2: If any games in a section use a time control that is quick-ratable only, then all games in that section must use time controls that are quick-ratable only. Quick events are usually fun, one-day events that don’t last all day and often have a fair number of rounds. Sudden-death rules are used in quick events except scorekeeping is not required.

Note 3: For Blitz events, it is advisable to state Blitz in the title or in the time control of the event for clarity. For more information on Blitz events, see the Blitz rules, Chapter 11.

Note 4: G/60 d/5 is dual rated. If you wish for the games not to be quick rated, make the “total playing time” at least 66 minutes (some possible time controls are G/61 d/5 and G/60 d/6). G/25 d/5 is also dual rated. If you do not want these games to be regular rated, make the total playing time at most 29 minutes (some possible time controls are G/26 d/3, G/25 d/4, and G/24 d/5).

Tim Just told me he is not inclined to make any changes to the second TD Tip after rule 5C. I find this quite befuddling as I think the second TD Tip after rule 5C is very poorly written and think my proposed rewrite, given above, is vastly superior. Who agrees with me?

I think “very poorly written” and “vastly superior” are exaggerations. I find only one thing wrong with said TD Tip as it appears in the rulebook: in Note 3, line 4, the phrase “(which is regular rated” (note that there is no closing parenthesis) is confusing and superfluous. Note 3 would be just fine if that phrase were completely omitted. Other than that, I have no preference between what’s in the current rulebook and Micah’s suggested rewrite. Either one is fine.

[Micah_Smith]

@dennisk

I think “very poorly written” and “vastly superior” are exaggerations. I find only one thing wrong with said TD Tip as it appears in the rulebook: in Note 3, line 4, the phrase “(which is regular rated” (note that there is no closing parenthesis) is confusing and superfluous. Note 3 would be just fine if that phrase were completely omitted. Other than that, I have no preference between what’s in the current rulebook and Micah’s suggested rewrite. Either one is fine.

What about, just to give some examples, the following issues with the TD Tip that is currently in the rulebook.

1. In the example after note 3, it says “All that needs to be reported is the 40/120 SD/60” which is misleading since the delay or increment, even if zero, must be reported as well.

2. When submitting a tournament for rating, it states what time control needs to be reported for sections with multiple schedules (and thus what rating system(s) these sections will be rated in) but not for tournaments with one schedule but different time controls for different rounds (which follow the same procedure). A section that has some rounds at dual rated time controls and some rounds at regular-only time controls is only regular-rated but this isn’t mentioned in any rule in the rulebook so it would be nice if at least the TD Tip was complete here and mentions this is the case for all tournaments that have some rounds at dual rated time controls and some rounds at regular-only time controls, not only ones with multiple schedules.

3. It states a lot of stuff that is already in the rule itself without adding anything and people complain that the rulebook is too long.

4. The opening sentence, “Here is how the changes referred to in 5C will be implemented and administered”, is now outdated since these changes came into effect over eight years ago when the 5th edition was the current edition of the rulebook.

[dennisk]

@Micah Smith

@dennisk

I think “very poorly written” and “vastly superior” are exaggerations. I find only one thing wrong with said TD Tip as it appears in the rulebook: in Note 3, line 4, the phrase “(which is regular rated” (note that there is no closing parenthesis) is confusing and superfluous. Note 3 would be just fine if that phrase were completely omitted. Other than that, I have no preference between what’s in the current rulebook and Micah’s suggested rewrite. Either one is fine.

What about, just to give some examples, the following issues with the TD Tip that is currently in the rulebook.

1. In the example after note 3, it says “All that needs to be reported is the 40/120 SD/60” which is misleading since the delay or increment, even if zero, must be reported as well.

Note that this is an example only, and throughout the example, no delay or increment is listed. The purpose of note 3 is served perfectly well as written – when there are faster and slower time controls used in different rounds, you only need to list the slower one. Why clutter it up with superfluous info? Having said that, I do like your example better, as it’s actually a bit shorter.

2. When submitting a tournament for rating, it states what time control needs to be reported for sections with multiple schedules (and thus what rating system(s) these sections will be rated in) but not for tournaments with one schedule but different time controls for different rounds (which follow the same procedure). A section that has some rounds at dual rated time controls and some rounds at regular-only time controls is only regular-rated but this isn’t mentioned in any rule in the rulebook so it would be nice if at least the TD Tip was complete here and mentions this is the case for all tournaments that have some rounds at dual rated time controls and some rounds at regular-only time controls, not only ones with multiple schedules.

I’m not sure the distinction is all that important (for the purposes of the TD Tip), but this could be easily fixed with a slight rewording of this note – no need for a wholesale rewrite.

3. It states a lot of stuff that is already in the rule itself without adding anything and people complain that the rulebook is too long.

4. The opening sentence, “Here is how the changes referred to in 5C will be implemented and administered”, is now outdated since these changes came into effect over eight years ago when the 5th edition was the current edition of the rulebook.

So what? I can’t imagine anyone (except you, apparently) noticing that or caring about it. The rulebook doesn’t need to be a masterpice of English prose. It just needs to convey information.

I suppose it can’t hurt to cut out the dead wood, so maybe your version is better. But you have to be careful with your tone (you in particular should be sensitive to this, since a few on this forum have taken an overly snippy tone with you on occasion). Let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that Tim Just himself wrote that original TD Tip. And then someone comes along, rephrases and reorganizes a few things, and then claims that Tim’s version is “very poorly written” and that his own is “vastly superior”. Wouldn’t you expect Tim to bristle a bit at that, and maybe to push back a bit? Wouldn’t you do the same if someone insulted your writing in the same way?

[Micah_Smith]

@dennisk

@Micah Smith

1. In the example after note 3, it says “All that needs to be reported is the 40/120 SD/60” which is misleading since the delay or increment, even if zero, must be reported as well.

Note that this is an example only, and throughout the example, no delay or increment is listed. The purpose of note 3 is served perfectly well as written – when there are faster and slower time controls used in different rounds, you only need to list the slower one. Why clutter it up with superfluous info? Having said that, I do like your example better, as it’s actually a bit shorter.

On principle, the delay or increment should be listed on all the time controls given in this example and most other places in which time controls are listed in the rulebook.

@dennisk

The rulebook doesn’t need to be a masterpice of English prose.

True, but I think the second TD Tip after rule 5C should be written at a lot higher and more professional level than how it is currently.

[timjust]

@dennisk

I think “very poorly written” and “vastly superior” are exaggerations. I find only one thing wrong with said TD Tip as it appears in the rulebook: in Note 3, line 4, the phrase “(which is regular rated” (note that there is no closing parenthesis) is confusing and superfluous. Note 3 would be just fine if that phrase were completely omitted. Other than that, I have no preference between what’s in the current rulebook and Micah’s suggested rewrite. Either one is fine.

I will fix that non closing parenthesis when I update some of the other non-5C suggestions that Micah has passed along to me. I went back and checked the 6th edition and the closed parenthesis for note 3 existed?! Thanks for catching that.

[Micah_Smith]

@Tim Just

@dennisk

I think “very poorly written” and “vastly superior” are exaggerations. I find only one thing wrong with said TD Tip as it appears in the rulebook: in Note 3, line 4, the phrase “(which is regular rated” (note that there is no closing parenthesis) is confusing and superfluous. Note 3 would be just fine if that phrase were completely omitted. Other than that, I have no preference between what’s in the current rulebook and Micah’s suggested rewrite. Either one is fine.

I will fix that non closing parenthesis when I update some of the other non-5C suggestions that Micah has passed along to me. I went back and checked the 6th edition and the closed parenthesis for note 3 existed?! Thanks for catching that.

I’m still befuddled as to why you don’t want to make any changes to the second TD Tip after rule 5C as it is written so poorly. Some examples are:

1. In the example after note 3, it says “All that needs to be reported is the 40/120 SD/60” which is misleading since the delay or increment, even if zero, must be reported as well.

2. When submitting a tournament for rating, it states what time control needs to be reported for sections with multiple schedules (and thus what rating system(s) these sections will be rated in) but not for tournaments with one schedule but different time controls for different rounds (which follow the same procedure). A section that has some rounds at dual rated time controls and some rounds at regular-only time controls is only regular-rated but this isn’t mentioned in any rule in the rulebook so it would be nice if at least the TD Tip was complete here and mentions this is the case for all tournaments that have some rounds at dual rated time controls and some rounds at regular-only time controls, not only ones with multiple schedules.

3. It states a lot of stuff that is already in the rule itself without adding anything and people complain that the rulebook is too long.

4. The opening sentence, “Here is how the changes referred to in 5C will be implemented and administered”, is now outdated since these changes came into effect over eight years ago when the 5th edition was the current edition of the rulebook.

5. The language of the opening sentence “Here is how the changes referred to in 5C will be implemented and administered” is poor since if you simply read rule 5C in the current edition of the rulebook, it just states what the current rules are, it doesn’t state what the changes were.

[Smythe_Dakota]

@Micah Smith

… 2) When submitting a tournament for rating, it states what time control needs to be reported for sections with multiple schedules … but not for tournaments with one schedule but different time controls for different rounds … so it would be nice if at least the TD Tip was complete here …

It is true that the real issue here is whether there are different time controls for different rounds, rather than whether the tournament has multiple schedules or not. It’s just that multiple schedules are the most common way for different controls to happen.

Bill Smythe

[Micah_Smith]

@Smythe Dakota

@Micah Smith

… 2) When submitting a tournament for rating, it states what time control needs to be reported for sections with multiple schedules … but not for tournaments with one schedule but different time controls for different rounds … so it would be nice if at least the TD Tip was complete here …

It is true that the real issue here is whether there are different time controls for different rounds, rather than whether the tournament has multiple schedules or not. It’s just that multiple schedules are the most common way for different controls to happen.

Bill Smythe

Yes and this is one example of the TD Tip being very poorly written.

[dennisk]

@Micah Smith

@Smythe Dakota

@Micah Smith

… 2) When submitting a tournament for rating, it states what time control needs to be reported for sections with multiple schedules … but not for tournaments with one schedule but different time controls for different rounds … so it would be nice if at least the TD Tip was complete here …

It is true that the real issue here is whether there are different time controls for different rounds, rather than whether the tournament has multiple schedules or not. It’s just that multiple schedules are the most common way for different controls to happen.

Bill Smythe

Yes and this is one example of the TD Tip being very poorly written.

You are prone to gross exaggeration. There are a few things in it that could be improved. It is not “very poorly written”, and continually repeating that it is is an insult to whoever wrote it. Everything doesn’t have to be black or white. There is a lot of room between perfect and “very poor”.

[Micah_Smith]

@dennisk

You are prone to gross exaggeration. There are a few things in it that could be improved. It is not “very poorly written”, and continually repeating that it is is an insult to whoever wrote it. Everything doesn’t have to be black or white. There is a lot of room between perfect and “very poor”.

Maybe I’m exaggerating things slightly but I still feel the TD Tip could be improved substantially (with all due respect to whoever wrote the TD Tip).

However, at least we agree that some things in it could be improved. Now we just need to somehow get Tim Just on board to make these improvements.