It appears that the National Youth Action is game 25 with 5 second delay. It is my understanding that would make it only quick rated. I’m not sure if I want to drive 6 hours each way for only a quick rating. I’ve spoken to others that feel the same way and may choose to skip it. Could someone verify that is will be normal rated. It’s always been dual rated in the past. I appreciate your immediate response so we can plan accordingly.
Thanks,
Dave Gilchrist
Dave,
The NYA has always been dual rated. This year is no exception. Hopefully we will see you there! If you have any other questions feel free to drop me a line, or visit our site. nya2009.com
Thanks,
Glenn Panner
Co-Organizer NYA 2009
Whew! I didn’t know a 25 with 5 second delay was dual rated. Glad to hear it.
You should see us there.
Dave
Under the old rules, G/25 + 5 seconds was considered equivalent to G/30.
I’m not sure that the Rules Committee and/or the Delegates intended for that to continue to be the case.
The NYA is not advertised as G25d5. It is advertised as G30d5 (variation: deduct 5 min from delay clocks).
There is, believe it or not, a difference.
Analog clocks should be set to 30min. Delay clocks should be set to 25 min with a 5 second delay. This is G30d5 with the (DEPRECATED BUT STILL USED) variation that the TD can deduct time from the delay clocks to “compensate” for the delay.
Lest anyone get sloppy here - if you advertise an event as G25d5, then:
Analog clocks should be set to 25 min and delay clocks should be set to 25 with a delay of 5 seconds (unless, of course, the TD uses the above variation, in which case delay clocks might be set to 20min).
The one ad I just looked at for the NYA said: "G/30 delay 5 (deduct 5). That should be dual (not duel…) rated.
Shame on Glenn and Mike for missing this. Glenn just said “this event is always dual rated”. Well…if you screw up the advertising, then it should NOT be. Mike said something equally irrelevant. The key is that the OP is incorrect (as far as the one ad I Googled) when he says that it is G25/d5. It’s not. It’s G30d5.
Yet more evidence that the TD option to “compensate” for the delay is a rule that has outlived it’s purpose. It now does more harm than good (in my opinion).
G/25 + 5 seconds is not, and never has been “equivalent to G/30”.
See previous rant.
I believe the (not quite unanimous) sentiment on Rules is that the option to deduct time from delay clocks should be eliminated.
But, that hardly matters, because the rules for the NYA are set by the Scholastic Council, and not by the Rules Committee.
The recent CCA Rated Beginners’ Open was G/25 + 5d, and it was rated regular as well as quick.
I’m not sure which one you’re referring to, but if it’s the one in Wheeling a few weeks ago, the TLA said “5SS, G.30.” Of course, in practice that means G/25 in a lot of games.
That’s the one I’m referring to. I participated in it. Analog clocks were more or less explicitly discouraged, all the participants used digital clocks, and they were all set to G/25 + 5d at the direction of the TD – who, BTW, was our very own jwiewel (waves).
The point is that under current rules you cannot tell what the time control is by looking only at the delay clocks. If a delay clock is set for 25 minutes with a delay of 5 seconds, it might be a G/25 event or it might be a G/30 event where the TD is using the (DEPRECATED) option of “compensating” for the delay. You cannot tell what the “official” time control is by reading the instructions on how to set a delay clock.
There are two key questions: 1 - what does the TLA (and the advertising) say. For example, my reading of the NYA ad is that it is advertised as G/30 (followed by instructions on how to set a delay clock - subtract 5 minutes. Subtracting 5 minutes from ONLY the delay clocks does NOT make it a G/25 event).
2 - how are the non-delay clocks set. In a G/30 event, they are set to 30 minutes; in a G/25 event they are set to 25 minutes.
Of course, you also set the delay clocks to 25 minutes with a 5 second delay in a (imho, correctly) run G/25 event. The difference is that you set the non-delay clocks to 25 minutes, too.
Organizers should be especially alert to this issue. It’s very simple to misunderstand and submit a TLA (or advertising) that will cause your event to be rated as Quick-only when you intended it to be Regular (and Quick). In my opinion, the NYA webpage is teetering on the brink - just barely on the side of the angels. It’s a G/30 event and will be dual-rated.
The problem, as evidenced by this thread (along with a PM from a great thinker who prefers to remain moderately anonymous) is that the NYA webpage invites mis-interpretation. Players (and parents) should not have to worry about these mind-numbing rules cul de sacs.
The OP was right to ask the question. Not all of the answers have been up to snuff.
Shouldn’t that be a 3 second delay?
That’s the “standard” delay - not the “mandatory” delay.
Personally, I don’t think that 3 seconds is enough to get the benefits (the ones important to me, me, me).
Notice that I specified an event that I thought was being run correctly.
Your milage may vary. Void in Arkansas and parts of Oklahoma.
Just don’t try setting the delay to 0. Been tried…wrist slapped.
Amen – most of the time.
But there is still the Steve Immitt problem, of how to get in 4 rounds of regular-rated play on a weeknight without making players miss their trains home.
The following change should eliminate most of the ambiguities caused by organizers using non-standard tournament announcements:
A tournament should be regular-rateable if the actual main control, in minutes, plus the announced (or default) delay time, in seconds, adds up to at least 30, with the main time counting for at least 25 of the 30.
Thus:
A. “G/25 d/5” would be regular-rateable.
B. “G25” would be regular-rateable (the default delay would be 5 seconds).
C. “G25 d/0” would not be regular-rateable.
D. “G30 d/0” would be regular-rateable.
In examples A and B, games played without the delay would be played at G/25, and the TD would not be permitted to subtract 5 minutes in games played with the delay.
Am I the only person who sees this as an improvement?
Bill Smythe
I think verifying your proposed rules would be complicated, and explaining them unambiguously to organizers (some of whom don’t like dual rating G/30 anyway) may be even more complicated.
Depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. It does have the advantage of stating a closed-form rule. What it probably wouldn’t do is reduce confusion among players and organizers.
As for the “four games per night” problem – perhaps we’ll just have to tell people who want to do this that you can’t squeeze two quarts into a one-quart botle.
Or the Ken Sloan problem: I’d like to run 6 rounds at G/15 and call it “Regular”. For some reason, there’s a rule against that.
I fail to see where stating that G/25+5 is dual rated is any more confusing than stating that G/30 is dual rated. Actually, from reading the OP and some of the subsequent posts this would possibly be less confusing.
I am very comfortable using an analog clock in time controls greater than G/45. I recently purchased a Heuer Chess Champion and have used it in G/75 and 40/90, sd/60 games. At G/30 while I prefer to use time delay I will leave the delay capable clock at home if I know the TD is going to impose a penalty on games that use time delay.
Since I play in Steve’s weeknight G/30’s when I am in NY, I understand his concerns. I generally will take a last round bye just to get home at a reasonable hour. Having to play for another half hour past the current normal end time could be a deal breaker for many of the players in his events.
Making G/25+5 dual rated will end the duel and confusion over the time deduction. We will also see fewer analog clocks in use. Then we could do away with 14(H).
Couldn’t be any more complicated than the present rules! At present, as I recall, there is a situation where a certain time control is regular-ratable OR quick-ratable, but not dual-ratable (or something like that).
Bill Smythe
Not sure what you’re referring to, Bill. The current rules are IMHO unambiguous.
The following applies to the advertised time control, ignoring any adjustment of clock time based the type of clock being used.
- If the total time per player is less than 5 minutes, the event is NOT RATABLE.
- If there are 16 or more seconds of increment or delay, the event is REGULAR RATED ONLY.
- If the total time per player is 61 minutes or longer, the event is REGULAR RATED ONLY.
- If the total time per player is at least 5 minutes but less than 30 minutes, the event is QUICK RATED ONLY.
- If none of the above apply (which also means that the total time per player is between 30 and 60 minutes, inclusively), the event is DUAL RATED.
These are the rules, though organizers and/or TDs seem to be very creative about interpreting them. There are also organizers and/or TDs who have admitted mis-reporting the time control in order to get an event rated under a specific rating system.
Who imposes penalties on games that use time delay? If there’s any prevailing bias out there, it’s against games that don’t (e.g., the “digital is always preferred over analog” rule, not to mention suggestions that a G/30 game should give you 30 minutes if you have an analog clock and 30 minutes plus delay time galore if you’re digital).